Cockburn hazard?
Hello everyone, decided to go for a fish in Cockburn Sound on Fiday chasing a Snapper or 2, started at a secret spot (d9!) the night was dead calm. Whilst fishing at night we encountered something I have never come across and potentially a risk to smaller craft.
We were passed by two big tug boats at relatively close range kicking up a wake which hit us side on at anchor. Obviously this happens often when boats pass however as the 2 followed each other they created several breaking waves at least 1.5m +high and very close together tossing the boat violently to the point where I felt if in a lesser boat we would have taken on water and potentially sunk, or if we didn't hear the waves rolling in could have fallen over or out.
I have been around boats my whole life and understand the usual wake of a boat or a ship but this was like when a tsunami kicks up to a huge wave in shallow water and then the waves build up, or when swell breaks on reef. Wondered if anyone else saw, felt these waves on Friday as there where a few other boats near by? My boat is a 5 .75 m glass, however I would have worried in a smaller boat and given the conditions wouldn't have expected these sort of waves from a couple of tugs!
Anyway just something to think about/watch out for. By the way caught a few small gummys and a couple of squid,no snapper
tim-o
Posts: 4657
Date Joined: 24/05/11
Shit, bugger that, Iv had it
Shit, bugger that, Iv had it on anchor in the morn, yuppies headin to rotto, they couldav made a wider pass, fortunatly the crossed in front of me and the bow took it. We were in Basso today, on the new pontoon opposite fish market reserve, and of course, dickheads doin 10kn+, lucky my kids didnt end up in the drink. That musta scared the shit out of you, spose its the risk at nite, same as motoring out yourself and people anchored with no lights
I am, as I've said, merely competent. But in an age of incompetence, that makes me extraordinary.
fisherking
Posts: 730
Date Joined: 29/05/08
You raise a fair point.I
You raise a fair point.
I have a small, open tinny & am always amazed how the larger boats don't seem to give us smaller guys much consideration with regards to wash or slightly changing course to avoid collisions.
I was out yesterday heading out to Carnac, from Woodies. A larger boat, not massive, but larger was heading across from my starboard side. Had we both continued on our lines we would have collided!!
Do u think the larger boat slowed down or changed his course in any way?
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go." - Oscar Wilde
Rob H
Posts: 5847
Date Joined: 18/01/12
might be reading it wrong?
ahh- but from what you've written he was the "stand-on vessel", and you should have been giving way to him?
As such he is obliged to keep a steady course unless it appears that the "give way vessel" isnt going to take appropriate action.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Justo82
Posts: 482
Date Joined: 17/10/11
That's how a read it too.
That's how a read it too.
fisherking
Posts: 730
Date Joined: 29/05/08
So, just by me giving way,
So, just by me giving way, that makes him the "stand on vessel"?
I maybe need a bit of clarification here. I thought it was the size of his boat, ego & wallet that made him think he didnt need to alter his course.
Please educate me.
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go." - Oscar Wilde
kmo
Posts: 127
Date Joined: 17/01/12
When two power-driven vessels
When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision,the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel.
From Prevention of Collisions at Sea Regulations 1983
Rule 15 — Crossing situation
Rob H
Posts: 5847
Date Joined: 18/01/12
longwinded I know but
as KMO said.
There is nothing in COLREGS to discriminate between vessel sizes that I know of.
Common sense, courtesy and good seamanship of course is something else but in theory if you are in open ocean in a dinghy as the standon vessel with a bulk carrier, he should give way.
The usual practice in that situation is to call on VHF and advise what you are going to do so he can proceed, or make a large and obvious course change in plenty of time.
Other factors such as towing, commercial fishing, restricted ability to maneuver, and constrained by draft over ride the starboard rule-but only if the correct lights/dayshapes are displayed.
Another simple rule of thumb is not to take evasive action by turning to port. Such as in a head on situation if you turn to port and he does what hes supposed to, you'll likely collide. If he is crossing from stb on a collision course, a very small course change by you to stb will clear you whereas if you turn to port and/or speed up it'll cause confusion as to your intentions cos it will appear you are trying to cross infront despite being the giveway vessel.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
fisherking
Posts: 730
Date Joined: 29/05/08
Thanks guys. I'll eat humble
Thanks guys.
I'll eat humble pie & admit that I had forgotten this part of my skippers ticket.
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go." - Oscar Wilde
Spitfire56
Posts: 128
Date Joined: 29/07/12
No 2 tugs heading out came straight past at speed
Popular fishing spot, couldn't see why they had to come that close. My boat has heaps of lights and there was 6 or 7 other boats anchored close by. Have had all the fly bridge boys come past but nothing like this, wonder what the draft is on one of those big tugs? You could have surfed the waves
DhuBoi
Posts: 896
Date Joined: 25/05/09
Yeh mate you make a very
Yeh mate you make a very valid point , and they do travel all over the bay , i have experienced the same an with my missus in the boat gave her a little fright we are in a 19ftr. Your dead right on the height an short peaks i undid the anchor rope an floated around abit. The tugs came within 50 metres of us an the waves / swells were pushing 2metres like yourself i have no doubt i. A smaller boat or tinny it could be a dangerous situation. There like ghost ships aswell can hardly hear them.
living is fishing
Spitfire56
Posts: 128
Date Joined: 29/07/12
Dhu boy,
Did releasing the anchor help? I wasn't really sure what to do other the ride them out and hold on
Daniel Westerduin
Posts: 437
Date Joined: 30/10/06
I fish Cockburn Sound quite
I fish Cockburn Sound quite often at night and only have a 4.2m tinny, it doesn't have a lot of freeboard and I've come across those tugs on a few occasions. If I don't get my nose of the boat up in time their waves come straight over the front even with a big windscreen. I've been dumped right in the lap a couple of times. Luckily my tinny is real wide (2m) so relatively stable but I can imagine if you were in a regular tinny and got hit side on you could be in trouble. I often wondered how the Kayak boys would go if they were caught near them Tugs. I also quite often also go a lot further out with no trouble from bigger waves that are further apart, but the ones from the Tugs raise up quite high but real close together.
DhuBoi
Posts: 896
Date Joined: 25/05/09
Hey spitfire i did find the
Hey spitfire i did find the boat pointed into the waves an undoing the anchor rope easier going . Just due to the fact there were two or three sets of waves so close together.
living is fishing
Spitfire56
Posts: 128
Date Joined: 29/07/12
Thanks dhuboi
Will keep in mind, interesting to hear these ghost ships ( agree they are quite) have caused similar concerns.
Jason P
Posts: 521
Date Joined: 16/02/13
App for tracking ships
These commercial boats should know better, but using a app like Boat Beacon you can track them and obtain their details giving you a better chance to complain to the relevant authorities. :-)
DM306
Jayden20
Posts: 672
Date Joined: 29/08/11
those tugs are the biggest
those tugs are the biggest pain in the ass....normally have to deal with them at least every second trip....if I dont stop whatever im doing and face into the 2 meter breaking wake im in the drink:!! Hasnt happened yet though haha
Daniel Westerduin
Posts: 437
Date Joined: 30/10/06
As far as I've seen they
As far as I've seen they stick to the channels, its just their waves continue for a long way across the Sound.
Spitfire56
Posts: 128
Date Joined: 29/07/12
Thought they would DW
Came right past us, I was no where near the channel. Maybe they play up at night?
grantarctic1
Posts: 2546
Date Joined: 03/03/11
I was there
I was there Friday evening while this happened, lucky for us we were moving spots so faced into the waves but still got knocked around. I have fished the sound for years and the tug's have come close before, but ive never seen two of them that close to each other and it did create a larger than normal wake.
I have no doubt they knew exactly what they were doing. they came very close to the area of the D9 ( they could have easily taken a wider path ) were quite a few boats were anchored and fishing.
But if you check your charts you will see the D9 is right on the edge of the channel . So i don't think what they did was illegle but maybe unethical . I'm sure they thought it was funny. Like you i didn't see the humour in scaring the crap out of a few fisho's .
Hebbs
Posts: 68
Date Joined: 23/01/12
Cockburn Tugplex? :)
Cockburn Tugplex? :)
It's not rocket surgery...
petermac
Posts: 2946
Date Joined: 03/03/10
if you
if you have your nav lights on, its down right wrong for a tug boat to do that. they should be easing coming into the channel anyway
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
speed limit at night, taking due care
I have encountered large vessels in Cockburn sound at night and not in the channel. All the times they scared the living hell out of me, it seems to be a game with them.
How to solve the problem, shine a very bright laser pointer straight at the bridge of the vessel when it is 150 - 200 metres from you and watch the large change in course they take instantly.
Works every time
Swompa
Posts: 3969
Date Joined: 14/10/12
"shine a very bright laser
"shine a very bright laser pointer straight at the bridge of the vessel when it is 150 - 200 metres from you "
So you point laser at a commercial vessel? At people doing their job who have as much right to be out there as you? I hope you are just beating your chest with that line, if not you should be reported.
carnarvonite
Posts: 8685
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Reported?
Don't know about being reported, if it was aimed at me, more likely to be run over from not being able to see.
There has been a few prosecutions lately from people aiming the laser pointers at helicopters, planes and cars and the penalties have been high and rightly so when you could not only blind them but kill someone in the process.
Swompa
Posts: 3969
Date Joined: 14/10/12
Reported/run over.
Reported/run over.
Rob H
Posts: 5847
Date Joined: 18/01/12
even a cheap hand held laser
even a cheap hand held laser pointer can easily cause eye damage/blindness-very risky game to play...
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
shonky
Posts: 203
Date Joined: 22/04/12
not just tugs
Like meglodon says mate, I also have encounted large vessels in the sound between the D9 and the bulk terminal like a bloody submarine sneaking around and they are hard to see. wouldn't recommend a laser pointer on one of them though.
This habit is getting expensive!
Georgejungle
Posts: 354
Date Joined: 25/03/09
Rob H can you explain how you
Rob H can you explain how you come to the conclusion he was the stand on vessel???. Spitfire was anchored wasnt he ?.
Rob H
Posts: 5847
Date Joined: 18/01/12
as Fishyfingers said below
as Fishyfingers said below
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
fishy fingers
Posts: 1719
Date Joined: 28/04/07
I think Rob H
was refering to fisherkings comment
Rob H
Posts: 5847
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Someone above asked about
Someone above asked about draft on the tugs
The Ulstein/Zpeller type tugs have quite a deep draft, probably 4 meters plus but the pods stick out a long way as they probably swing a 1 meter plus prop with 2100hp a side for a typical 50 tonne bollard pull tug.
As regards the wake they put out though, have a look at the hull shape of one if you see them dry out of the water at Henderson.
Old style shaft tugs had a conventional hull, Z drives are almost the shape of a slightly elongated fruit bowl to allow them to pull in any direction.
They dont need efficiency travelling through the water as they dont go far and have more than ample power but need to be able to pull sideways while moving at 6 or 7 knots in areas like Gero and Port Hedland where they need to make a turn before ships have enough speed for steerage way.
Ive never worked on tugs at Fremantle but do know that the pressure is always on to get from A to B but its not an excuse for poor seamanship.
All the guys Ive worked with were well aware of the large wake generated
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
catchalittle
Posts: 1875
Date Joined: 04/09/08
Have had that happen to me a
Have had that happen to me a couple of weeks ago in the sound but had a tug boat come past on either side of us and no we were not anywhere near the shipping channel threw the boat around a bit and the deckie o weighs nothing was knocked around like a bowling pin
Nathan
goreetie
Posts: 50
Date Joined: 15/01/12
scary
that was really crazy when we was in between those tug boat !!!
Im Asian and I never keep undersizes !!!
Rig
Posts: 2925
Date Joined: 27/12/06
lead lines
always tough with the size of the boats going through the sound there is quite often some big wake.
On my way back into ocean reef on saturday there were 2 seperate boats anchored bang smack on the lead lines. These guys wouldnt want to try this around cockburn.
Juist remember might has right so the bigger boats going around the sound have right of way, this doesnt really apply iof your boat is one metre longer than mine
hook line and sinker
Posts: 44
Date Joined: 05/10/09
that's not entirely
that's not entirely true......by physics yes but colregs no.....any vessel under anchor has right of way and all over vessels are required to take appropriate action to avoid collision....yes by rules give way to your starboard side but physics does play its part.....if a tanker is caming towards my runabout im gonna give way regardless of which side he is on because I hve the ability to manouver...I treat bigger boats like sail boats....they cant manouver the same as me and its not that hard to just adjust speed or course or both to avoid collision. but yes I have been nearly taken out by the tugs multiple times aswell and none of the times was I in any channel
Rob H
Posts: 5847
Date Joined: 18/01/12
HL and S, you've got the
HL and S, you've got the right idea in all but one-its actually illegal to anchor in a trafficable channel as also setting craypots and you have very few rights if any. A vessel that is in that channel and is constrained by draft has no where to go except onto the sand or straight over you.
They wont go over you but there would be major implications after the grounding.
In every situation whether you are right or wrong, you are obliged under COLREGS to take evasive action to avoid a collision
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Grumpysmurf
Posts: 97
Date Joined: 26/02/09
What about that fancy new
What about that fancy new Water Police "ship"? It went past me at East Fremantle (8 knots limit) and knocked me around a lot more than I was expecting.
Haines Signature 610C with Mercury 150 EFI
Rob H
Posts: 5847
Date Joined: 18/01/12
OK -with all this discussion
OK -with all this discussion of Cockburn Sound, I can tell you some of the difficulties operating there from my fishing days.
Small vessels only require a white all round light, same as an anchored vessel of almost any size. Hence what appears to be an anchored vessel can suddenly turn out to be a fast moving dinghy without any indication he has pulled anchor and taken off.
Some even just use a torch that they flash suddenly when they realize you are heading toward them then turn off again-where have they gone...
There is almost 270 degrees of background lights, very bright and all colours.
There are numerous yachties who believe they have ultimate right of way no matter what-the entrance to Fremantle Sailing Club is a classic with yachts trying to tack straight across the traffic separation lanes, you can see their exhausts puttering which in any situation removes their status as a sailing vessel even if they have sails up.
It is a very challenging environment, I made a serious miscalculation in there in the shipping channel once luckily with no consequences other than a severly dented pride and a watertight ringhole. The pilot was scathing on the VHF but a phonecall to him later was appreciated and his final comment was a chuckle and "don't worry son, your not the first-today"
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
carnarvonite
Posts: 8685
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Lights?
No mention of any all round white light on while he was fishing at anchor so who could say the tugs could even see him?
Would be interested to find out what regs are in place for Port of Fremantle Limits, like where you can anchor etc
Rob H
Posts: 5847
Date Joined: 18/01/12
True, and to compound it also
True, and to compound it also a "dead calm night" so reflection off the water.
Some also just rely on a deck flood facing downward or maybe away from an approaching vessel-its much harder to judge distance to a vessel seeing just the glow of decklights than an actual masthead light.
Most crayboats are leaving there in the early hours when there is very few amateur boats around, we would leave in the evening, head down the channel toward Cockburn then out either under the coathanger or on the north side of Garden so would come across many small boats
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
carnarvonite
Posts: 8685
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Entering harbour
Try coming in to either Geraldton or Port Hedland harbours at night and look for small boats at anchor when you have the town lighst behind the indicators, especially Hedland when they are white flashers.
Been in to Freo boat harbour many times at night and its a birthday compared to the above.
sea-kem
Posts: 15100
Date Joined: 30/11/09
I think the message to
I think the message to anyone using the sound be it commercial or amatuer is to use extreme caution especially at night. We all know there are plenty of clowns out there who don't give a crap about the rules and regs but plenty that do and I reckon Spitfire is probably one of them. We hear of the crap seamanship and lack of courtesy from all aspects pro and rec. Sounds like two tugs steaming out like that in the dark is a stupid thing to do. I'd be pissed, anyone would have a right to be pissed.
Love the West!
Paul H
Posts: 2104
Date Joined: 18/01/07
Two tugs or any large boats
Two tugs or any large boats for that matter steaming in the same direction should be aware that when their waves meet the size of the waves from their wake will double in size and could be a life threatening for any boats. One would assume the tug operators would or should be aware of this and adjust distance from eachother accordingly in those sorts of areas..
Youtube Channel - FishOnLine Productions
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbUVNa-ViyGm_FTDSv4Nqzg/videos
Spitfire56
Posts: 128
Date Joined: 29/07/12
Thanks for your comments guys
Just to clarifying had white light on, it even had a brand new globe just for that night also had 2 led strip lights shining from the rockets and 3 guys with head torches . We looked like a Christmas tree, the other 6 or 7 boats near by where all doing the right thing and no one was near the channel or lead lines. So like a few have mentioned poor seaman ship on what was otherwise a nice night. We where ok but wouldn't have wanted to be a small tinnie. Good call out on people without lights, have seen them out there too!
Spitfire56
Posts: 128
Date Joined: 29/07/12
Radar? Can't pick up a cluster of boats?
Crazy
carnarvonite
Posts: 8685
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Speed humps
Would just look like couple of speed humps on the radar
Grumpysmurf
Posts: 97
Date Joined: 26/02/09
Tugboat crew rescued a whale
Tugboat crew rescued a whale in the sound today - now we know why they were speeding past all the fishing boats :)
au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/17862564/tugboat-crew-rescue-trapped-humpback/
Haines Signature 610C with Mercury 150 EFI
Bodie
Posts: 3758
Date Joined: 05/11/07
yep just read that, wonder
yep just read that, wonder what a hump back is doing in Cockburn sound?
Spitfire56
Posts: 128
Date Joined: 29/07/12
Heros saving wales
Good on them, still shouldn't sink tinnies