Mate go back and see what the go is. If you payed $400 for them to fix the problem then one would think it shoud be fixed.

You need 3 basic elements for your engine to run. Air, Fuel and spark. Air is a given, So it's either starving for fuel, or there is a spark problem.

When you dropped it off at the repairers, did they use your fuel tank and your fuel line, or did you just drop off the engine itself ? I'd double check that the joins in the hose at the primer bulb are good, that there are no cracks in it or the hose, fittings are clean, and that the tank itself doesn't have a vaccume in it when the engine dies. If that all checks out I'd check out the ignition system, I've seen some automotive applications where when the coils get warm the insulation doesn't do it's job properly and the bindings arc and play funny buggers.

Really shouldn't take that long for them to check out.

did you tell them of your problem and to fix it as well as a service because a service is as the word says its not a repair of any other problem your motor might be having as hamo said did you drop your tank and fuel line with them could be your problem there plus there are some problems you just cant diagnose in a test tank you may need a mobile mechanic to actually go out on the water with you just remember try not fall into the service trap as a way of fixing motor issues because if it was a dealer you took it to a service is all they will give you

 Cheers for the replies 

Will have to check all the fuel lines etc, 

Good point about a service or a repair.
 

I suppose there is no harm in ringing up and asking the service centre anyway

thanks james

 Hello again.

So I took the motor back to get fixed at a SUPPOSEDILY yamah dealer.

Now $1000 out of pocket I took it for a test run today and its STILL NOT WORKING AS IT SHOULD.

How many more times can you go back, pay money and get the motor back with the problem still there?

As im an apprentice and my mate is at Uni we really cant afford anymore.

What should we do???

Cheers James

why would you pay a extra 600 for not reciving any thing?

 Because they changed other parts etc for the first service...

I keep being told that Yamaha 2 stroke motors are very simple and easy to service/fix...

there is no way a service for a 25 yam is $1000

unless your in k town?

what shop did the service?

 $400 at the start 

Then the next $600 covered ... change of exauhast plates etc...

" yeh we fixed it this time mate" was the answer when I asked what happens if it still doesnt work...

I dont want to name and shame just yet, but they are on wanaroo road :)

how many hours has it done?

 Bought it second hand, so not exactly sure, guys at the shop gave it a "100 hr" service, 

I had a simular problem, that the motor would not go flat stick.
It was as simple as air leaks in the fuel line.
I hate taking cars or outboards to places where they treat you like an idiot or just as a number and take your money for nothing, you are a valued customer. if they serve and treat you right, you are a customer for life.
Maybe if the person reads this as I am sure they will.
Maybe they might sort you out,
I hope so.

 Did you check your mix of fuel/oil, being 09/10 model, I'd assume this is an oil injection motor, where you don't have to pre-mix them manually to a certain ratio (I think it was 50:1) ... It sound like the oil injector has a problem, and it's putting more oil than it needs, which makes the combustion inefficient! Just a thought anyway, as I had a similar prob in the past, but it was 1995 Johnson 90hp (Pre-mix).

Worth checking, and g'luck

what did they say was the problem? exhaust plates????$600???? what suburb r you in?

If its the same problem as you stated with your old post, problem sounds alot like an air leak in your fuel line. any chance you got reciepts for the motor when you bought it off the old owner? unless its damage caused by bad fuel should be covered under warranty i would think.

But if it is a portable fuel tank check that the breather isn't blocked - had it happen many years ago to me setting up a partial vacuum which restricted fuel flow ...........worked great all the time the tank was warm (in the sun) but as it cooled off the motor would slowly die - as I said stupid but you never know ! 

Had a similar problem on a bigger motor. I never put gasket glue around the thread on one of my connectors to my fuel/water seperator. If there is an air leak your motor which may be sucking in too much fuel.

spwen mate.. might have to invest in a real boat

I found this while having a look on the net about this problem. http://www.spc.int/coastfish/Sections/training/fts_pdf/statutory/outboard_lg_en.pdf

Thought it may be handy for some of the guys with small motors.

 Cheers guys, am going to give the mechanics a call tomorow and suggest some other reasons for it that you guys have given me. 

Thanks for all the help

^^

Shits me when mechanics have a guess at what's causing the problem, and still charge you when they're wrong.

Basically means they've got sweet FA idea and use you as a guinea pig.

Had a major barney with Barbagallos a couple of months ago for the same reason - but it all worked out OK after I went off my rocker and gave them a lecture on work ethic in their packed customer lounge.

Back on track -

2 stroke engine not running properly ? - providing it's got good compression it's really only going to be a problem with fuel supply or spark.

Just about every other suggestion in this thread is more credible than their attempt by charging you another $600 for exhaust plates.

My Suzuki 70Hp 4 stroke had a problem that when the engine had warmed up and I went 3000 plus rpm then the motor would suddenly pull back to 2200 and run fine.

Various mechanics and shops advised me it was a fuel problem. Certainly felt like it, or a sensor cutting in. I ended up buying another fuel tank, replacing all fuel lines and connectors outside the motor.

I stripped the motor right up to and including the vapour seporator. Still no success. I got a computer connected up to check sensors and any abnormallities, nothing. But they all said it must be fuel, not ignition.

So ignoring their advice, I launched the boat again and tied it up fore and aft to the jetty. With a friend at the controls we ran the boat up until the problem occured. I then pulled off each spark plug lead (refitting it again) one by one, and guess what, one spark plug was not firing under load. Cost about $3.50 to fix.

While you have recieved much advice on what the problem could be, no-one has mentioned ignition much. I am assuming the plugs were changed during the service, but a lead or coil could be breaking down under load.

 Went out today and it's still loosing power but if you stop for a hour or so it will be fine again for a while, but some days it will be fine the whole session. So frustrating

Give the department of consumer and employment protection  DOCEP  a ring and tell them your story,they are usually very good at telling you how to get the people who took your hard cash to fix the problem or getting your money back because they have not provided the goods (sevice/repair ) you paid for The days of people ripping of the customer and getting away with it are long gone if you are prepared to be forthright and ascertive about your rights as a customer

I had a very similar problem with a race bike.

After a 10 to 15 mins the bike would slow down and not want to rev.

Once the bike had cooled down it would run fine again for a few mins.

It ended up being the coils, once they got hot they would stop working properly.

Not sure if this is your motors problem, but as I say its sounds like the same thing.

check your coils.

just such a f around coming into summer we have had it in and out of service and repair for past 3 months and for them to say the problems fixed and give it back to us in the same state afterr a $450 service and a $500 "repair of the problem described" .

Easiest way to check sparkplug leads is by starting it up in the dark, the escaping sparks give away where the blowout is.

Good luck! 

Hi James14

All the members who are making contributions to fixing your motor problem are giving good well meaning advice,however there is one problem that is not being addressed. That is you have paid about $1000 and not had the problem fixed with the motor by a person who has taken your money and said "problem gone". This is not good enough unless you feel sorry for him and have money to burn,which by the sounds of it you don't. As one of the members of this site says,if you don't change something nothing will change, i'ts up to you.

Go see the head honcho at the dealers tell him you are very unhappy with what has gone on, you want the problem fixed,if fixing it ios beyond his capability then he should tell you and you will take your business to another dealer.

You want your money refunded from him as he has made false claims about the repair and that is against the law,and unless the repair is carried out at no further cost to you DOCEP are going to be informed with the view to them taking prosecution action for false and misleading advertising.

At some point of time you have to bite the bullet and make harsh statement about his company's integrity or lack thereof and it is your intention to make all honest members of this site aware of his company's short falls.

If you do nothing, nothing is going to change except the opportunity to rip other customers off will remain.

It is your right to get value for your money James14, BITE THE BULLET

Thanks for the information.

Tomorrow I will bite the bullet and tell them how it is, they said it was fixed and for all they know I could have taken a 14 foot dinghy out past rotto, knowing that they have said the motor has been fixed. Unknown that they still havent fixed the problem, I could have got into alot of trouble after it stopped working again.

Do I mention some other options as to why it is having this problem?? Sort of doing there job for them. 

Will let you know how it goes tomorrow.

Cheers James

you would want to be damn near perfect with comments like that, james as someone who previously worked for said business im very sure if you speak with the head mechanic he is a very reasonable person and will fix your problem as soon as he can, although i do know how much of a pain in the ass an ongoing motor problem can be goodluck

Any up dates on this one?

 Called up said business they said they understand our position and will have a look and try to look and fix the problem but not until the new year and they may need to water test it which costs $150-200 but he will "speak to his boss to sort something out" still no updates on the problem itself! Missing out on some weather tho so it's still not great news

Mate if they are an authorised yamaha dealer, contact australia yamaha and discuss the problem your having with one of there state reps and your lack of service from one of the outlets they have listed as one of their repairers. The other thing is your getting pretty close if not past to over capitilising on the engine. You shouldnt have to tell them how to fix it, and they shouldnt be taking money of you hand over fist for no repair.

Cheers

Mate don't give them any more money.

These guys appear to be fault finding their way through your wallet...

I had a dealer in freo service a motor years ago on an agreed $900 deal and when i arrived there were loose belts on the motor half arsed work and they then posted me a bill for $3000, I told them to #&^$*.

We finally agreed on $1200. and then I dumped the motor the next year and got a new motor.

Don't give them any more money.

Another port of call would be the Ministry of fair trading, it should cost you $10 to lodge a complaint, write down what has been happening and log the dates conversations and amounts, they will call a hearing and decide on an outcome.

Don't give them any more money.

I would also publish the companies name as the agreed service for $400 becomes $1000 now asking for more $$$ to sea test the problem they should have fixed for the first $400.

have I said that before... Don't give them any more money....

Publish the companies name and ......... and don't give them any more money!!!!

Giving them one more chance before publishing the companies name in a big way.

Good to know that there are options out there. Ringing yamaha Australia does sound like a good idea. 

No more money!!!

Cheers James

I feel very sorry for you, and I am sure you are not the first to suffer this experience. This needs to be divided into two areas. 1/ You took the motor in for a (100hr) service, and 2/ The motor had a running problem.

In both cases, I think you have just been "processed" by the system. The key to this delemma, is whether you made it clear that the problem happens after you have been running the motor flat chat for a while ( I think this was the case?) and whether they wrote this down. Or did you tell them all about the oil mix drama that you posted earlier.

The latter story would account for the "exhaust plates" being changed. They were probably looking for any thing that may be carboned up or restricting the exhaust flow.

The guy you talked to probably noted, engine power down, wrong oil mix, check for associated problems. The big problem now is 1/ Labour charge out rate. 2/ Actually thinking "Have I fixed the problem" and 3/ inadequate test facilities, i.e. road testing the vehicle (under load).

The cost for the service is OK, I just brought parts to service my motor $200, so that leaves 2 hrs labour at $100/hr. which is OK. The repair is well pretty tough since it an't fixed. I bet they binned the exhaust plates (what ever they are).

But I think you may have done your money.

What I want to know is when you have this power loss, is the motor running rough, i.e. one cylinger out, or is it just a general loss of power. i.e. a slow die. The first to me would indicate ingnition and the second fuel.

And whats your mechanical ability. PS fill in your profile while your at it.

We didn't tell them anything about oil mixture as that wasn't a problem we were using the correct mix, the motor runs (sounds) ruff when it loses power but if u reduce the throttle back to half or less it runs smooth but at a slow 6knots ... We are accepting the initial 400 for as we got our value it's the second charge of 500 where it seems they had a stab in the dark at the problem and got it wrong , one weird note is after the first service the motor still had the same problem but the speed it was reduced to after (half throttle) was faster than before the service...

What you have done is expose a basic floor in the boat servicing situation, being that they can't test run motors under load, unless they have a test tank or some way of loading up the prop. It would be much the same as putting a car up on blocks and run/testing it with the wheels off the ground. OK move on.

I think you have an ignition problem. You say the motor runs rough when the problem occurs, like a cylinder not firing?, I mean you only have two cylinders so the effect of a cylinder out would be pretty obvious.

Your last sentance was a bit of a puzzle, but I think you are saying that after your service, (you've only had one service?) when the problem occured, the motor then ran OK at a slightly higher RPM than before the service. I am assuming that the spark plugs were replaced at the service. Should be on your bill.

What I think is happening is the ignition system, when all is hot and is under load, is breaking down. Prior to the service the plug gap would have been wider, so that would also put more load on the ignition system. So the miss firing would not stop until the RPM (or load) was dropped well back. With new plugs and less gap, the ignition system could operate at a slightly higher RPM, (i.e. that extra load from the wider plug gap removed) hence your faster speed.

Have you got access to a jetty where you can tie the boat up, and run it in the water, loading the prop. Are there are two of you, so with one as a throttle jockey and the other at the motor looking for a problem? If its evening or early morning you may see the spark escaping from the lead or spark plug cap.

that is what i meant by the motor running okay at a slightly higher rpm, yeah theer are two of us so we might have to give it a try somewhere. we changed the plugs a week or so before the service but it didnt make a noticable difference, and the shop then changed our brand new plugs with more brand new plugs(exact same). on the reciept from the first service the mechanic noted that the cylinders wer both a little low (just over 100) but they wer both the same so they said its fine.

When you changed the spark plugs, did you examine the electrode end of the old plugs. was one dirtier, or carboned up more than the other, or were they both much the same. Or were they both fairly clean?

ill have a look tomoro as i kept them for some reason but yeh ill check it out for you

Mate check your power pack.. Know a few people who have had the same problems taken to mechanic changed all sorts of things that never fixed the problem.. looked on boat forum on the net found same issues and it was the power pack. These were not yammies though but carb 2 strokes and you have same issues

Firstly you've got to try and work out if you've got an ignition or a fuel problem. Both the CDI unit or the coil will cost big bucks CDI unit about $450 new, and as said earlier you've already over capitalised on the motor.

Is there any documents on service history prior to you buying the motor. Is there a possibility the previous owners sold the boat knowing this problem existed.

With the compression down and the tell tail water jet blocked or not working, was the dingy a tender for a fishing boat or something like that. The motor may have really high hours.

The thought comes to me that a member on this forum may have a similiar (spare or dead) motor in their shed, if so maybe a parts swap to do a diagnostic check may be possible.

Post up the model number as well.

http://www.selocmarine.com/product_detail.php?item=44

Bryan

 Spoke to my cousins mate over east who own a Yamaha dealer or something and when I told him what the repairs the shop made he seemed to think it was strange for them to do the head gasket? 

So here's what they did.

Head gasket

H/cover gasket

Inner exhaust

Outer exhaust

Ex plate

Carbon clean..

Anyone got any comments

 Sorry for the wrong information guys I have been informed that the cost for both services was actually $898 in total not $1000...

That must make it ok for the motor to be not working again after we have payed money right???

Have we got two tinnies with 25 HP motors on the one thread, or two persons disscussing the same boat?

 Sorry Iana, One boat 2 Owners, 

You guys have paid for services rendered, this is a club that everyone on this earth is a member off. You brought the boat, you tested it for operation and seaworthiness, you checked its past history etc etc.

The point is it dosent matter whether you own a $100,000 cruiser or a 10 ft dingy, the time it takes to change a fuel filter on either would be roughly the same. In other words when your boat is worth lots, the cost of the service in relation to the value of the boat is not much. But when your boat is worth very little, the cost of a service seems massive.

With your last post, listing the parts used, there was obviously alot of work done on the engine. Your first cost was what was probably a standard service. The second was a service of the cylinder heads and exhaust system. I think they have done the right thing, as you dont appear to have any idea of motor hours, and being a two stroke, the heads and exhaust could be carboned or choked up. This would certainly have reduced the power of the motor.

Fault finding is certainly an educated guess, and a case of eliminating the various causes of the problem one by one. They would have worked on your motor doing things which they know cause these problems and also based on what you told them. What they have done is eliminated the posibility of a cracked head/s, blown head gasket, choked up exhaust system or a carboned up head. At $100 an hour labour plus parts sounds quite reasonable to me. You need to move on and stop grizzling. Boats are expensive things to own.

If you take the boat back to these guys, you can expect to be paying for a water test, probably coils or CDI unit. the next bill will be up there near a $1000. And this with what you have already spent will be fair and above board.

I thought it was poor that you have been bagging this company about what they charged, without explaining (to us) what work they actually did. For the record I also service motors as part of my job, not outboards, but just about everything else.

 The point is that we have payed money in return for nothing. If it was fixed after the 2nd service and it cost us that amount then so be it. 

But what happens when I take it back again, get it water tested etc etc etc pay the money and it doesnt work again? Its going to be a never ending.

its just the fact that they have told us that they fixed the problem........ nothing else matters its the fact that they told us they did but in reality they didnt,you dont pay for them to guess and eliminate a possible problem, you pay them to ELIMINATE THE PROBLEM. 

They will take it out for a run. They will note the way the engine mis-behaves, and based on what the engine did, they will look at the fuel system or the ignition system or both for the fault. They will also charge you for their time and parts used.

On the ignition side you know its not spark plugs because they have been changed twice, by you and by the service guys, and my bet is that new plugs were fitted just before you brought it. How did the plugs look that you changed.

An easy elimination would be to get your mate over east to lend you an ht coil and CDI unit. swap them over to see if the problem goes. Or someone on the forum has spares you could borrow.

Do you have any mates who are into motors that can lend a hand. Once the problem is found you could watch ebay and bid on s/h parts.

Hello James, I have had a read of this thread and from what I can work out it looks like the engine has been overheated at some point.

To change all those parts you listed indicates the engine may have had an overheat. When the initial service was performed did the whole water pump need changing or just the impeller? Was the thermostat ok? The reason I ask is if the engine had a major waterpump failure then it wont be fixed under manufacturers warranty. The reason being that waterpumps don't fail for no reason, it could have been run without water or picked up a plastic bag. The low compression could be due to the rings loosing tension due to being overheated.

With a severe overheat the exhaust plate would have been warped and there would be evidence of burnt or discolored paint on the engine. Another side effect of a severe overheat would be possibly damaged ignition coils, charge coils, power pack, thermostat, etc. This means that even after the problem has been identified and fixed the engine could well have problems in the future that shouldn't be blamed on the techs that fixed it.

I think it's safe to say the tech that said it was fixed said so with the belief that it was indeed fixed, if he was mistaken it is unfortunate but he is human after all and I am sure he would not want to tarnish his or the company he works for reputation by giving you a false statement on the condition of your engine.

It seems like the company is willing to sort the problem out but they shouldn't be expected to do it for free. This raises the question of how much farther do you proceed with this engine. 

Hope this helps.

James and Cj;

to keep this simple , Mechanics dont get given a crystal ball nor are they trained to use one and when a customer states that THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR A WATER TEST it makes there job kind of difficult to pin point a problem down to a t!