Life jackets to become compulsory?
Submitted by resurgence on Mon, 2015-11-02 14:48
Interesting that the coroner has called for the wearing of life jackets to be mandatory in unprotected waters...
Also touches on better education on how to use safety equipment.
Life jackets are already mandatory in some eastern states while underway.
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Rob H
Posts: 5817
Date Joined: 18/01/12
just another stupid kneejerk
just another stupid kneejerk reaction.
Over east there was discussion a fair while back about requiring PFD's for all water sports-how stupid, anyone who surfs or wavesails knows how dangerous that would be.
Inside any vessel enclosure would be a serious hazard to wear a PFD-you'd never get out.
Only place I can see for it is someone who cannot swim or fend for themselves in the water such as a small child etc.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
resurgence
Posts: 578
Date Joined: 23/04/14
Hardly
I'd hardly call it kneejerk - it's in response to a fatality and it's common practice elsewhere is Australia.
Tell me - can you and everyone you know swim for several km and/or several hours until help arrives? In adverse conditions?
Inside vessel enclosures, I think there would still be greater benefit from protecting those who actually go overboard. That's a bit like the old argument against seat belts - they're dangerous because it makes it harder for the rescuers to cut me out. It's false logic.
uncle
Posts: 9506
Date Joined: 10/02/07
i'll be the devil
sooo many people die that would still be here if they had a life jacket on, I have a health problem but don't wear a jacket, maybe I need to be forced to wear one, I make sure the little tackers wear one though, my 2 bobs worth
all aggressive fish love bigjohnsjigs
diver
Posts: 149
Date Joined: 25/09/08
Rob H
Rob Is 100% correct in his sumation of this concept,and every part he says is both senseable and practicale,as for you Uncle,if you are in any way incapasitated through ill health or body function,then you should have the good bloody sense to wear a PFD,without using the piss poor excuse that if it is made mandatory, you would,if you are that bad,stay off boats, and That is my $2.00 worth.
uncle
Posts: 9506
Date Joined: 10/02/07
but I'd look like a big sook
isn't that why everyone won't wear one, same as the dicks who go outback without a personel epirb etc,
all aggressive fish love bigjohnsjigs
Iceman
Posts: 747
Date Joined: 17/03/09
Children
It should a least be made manditory for kids under the age of 12 to waer a life jacket.
As far as getting caught in a capsizre vessel you can get manual inflating life jackets that will not inflate until you want them to.
I my opinion they should be mandatory. Have been involved in too many rescues over the last 30 years that if mandatory would have saved lives.
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crasny1
Posts: 7006
Date Joined: 16/10/08
I work trying to save lives
but would be worried wearing a PDF should a boat capsize and your in a Cabin. Most current jacket are NOT self inflating or manual, they are bulky.
I have no issue wearing on, but to change most boats jackets to inflatable would be very pricy for everyone IMO.
"I would like to die on Mars. Just not on impact!!" _ Elon Musk
Iceman
Posts: 747
Date Joined: 17/03/09
Price
What price do you put on a life? Manual inflating lifejackets are less than $100
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crasny1
Posts: 7006
Date Joined: 16/10/08
You have me wrong
I CAN afford this, and on my boat I have everything that whistles safety (plus more). What I am pointing out is that a change like this might make it hard for some to afford inflatables, when at the current time they already have forked out for Legal jackets.
I ask for jackets on as soon as the breeze looks 20Kn +. Ex Windsurfer can pick this pretty easily and thats my rule in a 5.4m boat.
"I would like to die on Mars. Just not on impact!!" _ Elon Musk
dodgy
Posts: 4584
Date Joined: 01/02/10
Be more beneficial to make
Be more beneficial to make them mandatory on a few land based areas first.
Does anyone know where the love of god goes, when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
D_d_001
Posts: 1522
Date Joined: 09/03/13
I fail to see the correlation
I fail to see the correlation between "compulsory wearing of jackets" and the tragedy that occurred in this instance.
from what I see they were all wearing jackets just the wrong ones type 2 (including deceased) instead of type 1.
Jason P
Posts: 521
Date Joined: 16/02/13
2 cents worth.
Whether it's either protected waters or unprotected waters my kids have to abide by my rules to always wear a life jacket as I find murky brackish water is a higher risk of drowning. Not many kids I know could easily swim the width of the swan river. As for Adults wearing them, it needs just to be the responsibility of themselves being relevant to environmental conditions at hand.
DM306
Brock O
Posts: 3259
Date Joined: 11/01/08
Minmimum for me
is to make sure there out and right there, cuddy cab, could leave them out of site under the cushions but only for storage, always bring them out when on the water, as the report said, it happened so quickly.
Same with epird, common to mount out of the way so there protected...need to reachable in a few seconds! Thought they all floated though ?
out wide
Posts: 1535
Date Joined: 30/12/08
Great idea. How many
Great idea. How many deceased people given a chance again would of put one on then made it back to their familys' ??? I have inflatable types and they cause no hassles.
Rob H
Posts: 5817
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Last year
From the Royal LifeSaving Society statistics 12 months to 30 June 2015
271 people drowned in Australian waterways last year
53 of those were "using watercraft immediately prior to their demise"
That is 20%.
If it really is a good idea, why would it not make 5 times as much sense for EVERYONE who enters the water anywhere to purchase and wear a PFD?
ME??
I value my right and responsibility as a skipper to decide when and where I ought to wear a PFD.
And with all and total due respect to the guys here who are active in VMR etc, but you also only see the worst of situations.
I too, as a life long seafarer, have participated in searches, rescues, tows-and body recoveries...
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
resurgence
Posts: 578
Date Joined: 23/04/14
Poor argument
It's a poor argument to suggest that an idea is not worthwhile because it only saves some of the lives, not all of them.
A question Rob - what do you see as the downside of having to wear a PFD all the time?
Shane
Rob H
Posts: 5817
Date Joined: 18/01/12
There are situations where a
There are situations where a life jacket will likely kill you if you wear it-down into an engineroom, inside a cabin, sleeping in your bunk.
I want to decide if the situation warrants it or if its a hazard.
Discomfort on a hot flat calm day 10 meters off the beach.
Want to dive off the boat for a swim-must wear a life jacket.
Personal choice.
As a point of interest, all of you guys who are for it-do you wear one ALL THE TIME now?
If not why not?
There is NO reason someone who feels safer in one, cannot wear one without needing to be ordered to and fined.
Just like lowering the speed limit doesnt stop people breaking it, neither will drunk idiots wear one if they have little chance of being caught.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
resurgence
Posts: 578
Date Joined: 23/04/14
NSW and Vic seem to have
NSW and Vic seem to have sensible requirements for when wearing a lifejacket is mandatory. Part of the requirements in both states is that if you are on a vessel over 8m in length then wearing a lifejacket is not mandatory. This would seem to mostly eliminate the situations you are highlighting - inside engine rooms, enclosed cabins, sleeping while underway etc.
For vessels 4.8-8m in length lifejackets are compulsory in certain high risk situations.
For vessels less than 4.8m in length it's pretty much mandatory all the time when the vessel is underway.
They also state that the wearing of lifejackets in certain higher risk situations only applies to "open areas of the vessel", which again would seem to indicate that someone has considered those risks.
Again, it's a poor argument to say that if something doesn't eliminate ALL the risk or undesirable outcomes then it's not worthwhile.
Daisy
Posts: 789
Date Joined: 24/01/08
A couple of hours in 40 deg
A couple of hours in 40 deg plus with a life jacket on would probably do you in anyway.
The view expressed in this post is that of a self opinionated bullshitter and does not reflect that of this website, it's owners, mediators, other members or anyone else for that matter :-P
pale ale
Posts: 1755
Date Joined: 02/01/10
yep, too bloody hot in the
yep, too bloody hot in the Pilbara to wear a jacket.
Nath79
Posts: 15
Date Joined: 03/06/15
Um wen did this event happen
Um wen did this event happen and was it WA , I worked pro boats as a Deckie on off since 17 and we never worn jackets has come up in chats weather we could swim in full pro wet weather gear though , in adverse weather conditions I make all people wear jacket if bad enough but kids most deafently my youngest 6 yo must wear one all time how Eva 2 older ones don't in saying that I hav done the courses an training an could put it on water if I had too but it skippers decision and responsibility lies with u no matter what maritime law pretty strict on this
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
What a conundrum
Where do you draw the line, do you legislate so that every bit of safety equipment that is available for every type of recreational activity must be used and WA becomes truly the nanny state.
My view towards wearing life jackets is this, if I believe that the conditions could, become a problem then I tell all my passengers to put on a life jacket I don't wait until it is dangerous sea conditions. I have the opinion that I'm experienced enough to see dangerous conditions developing and instruct my passengers accordingly.
Will life jackets save lives, of course they will, will bike helmets save lives, yes.
But just how far are you going to intrude into peoples life styles to may be keep them from harming themselves.
I think the benefits of wearing safety gear of the various types should be pointed out to people, then for goodness sake let them decide if they are going to use it, thus exercising freedom of choice.
resurgence
Posts: 578
Date Joined: 23/04/14
Tough problem
The problem for the regulators is that if you give everyone a choice which no-one takes, and then fatalities follow, they then have to decide at what point is it unacceptable to allow deaths to occur that could reasonably have been prevented?
I wasn't around when seatbelts became mandatory, but I suspect many of the same arguments were brought up at the time e.g. I am responsible enough, it won't happen to me, it's inconvenient etc. A lot of the same reasons are brought up with regard to safety equipment and procedures in mining. Over time however, people just get used to it, and still get things done.
sea-kem
Posts: 15040
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Good points re seatbelts,
Good points re seatbelts, and there's definitely a correlation here. Arguments came out when they brought in the 50km/h speed limit "my car won't drive that slow" was some of the arguments I heard when it was debated on the radio. I think it should be compulsory for kids under 12 as Iceman says and seniors as they are most vulnerable.But you will also never stop stupidity on the water same as a workplace or on the road that's why they bring in these laws and procedures, to protect the idiots.
Love the West!
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
What you have said is true....however
If the government legislates that the individual does not have the right to make his own choice of just what he considers adequate protection in the pursuit of his hobby/sport we can in a blink of an eye suddenly find that surfers must wear life jackets and helmets (yes there are helmets specifically designed for surfers, all skin divers must have electronic shark repelling devices when in the water.
No one doubts that the people who see legislating for these safety devices to be mandatory is thinking that they are doing the community a good service, when in fact they aren't.
It has become very fashionable in WA to have signs warning all and sundry about everything from don't go in the water if there is a big sea running (or words to that effect Cottesloe beach) to look both ways before crossing the street etc etc.
Common sense has been eliminated from the past 2 generations of West Australians IMO they have been educated to a state by the government that the mentality is, don't do it unless there is a sign telling you how and when and why you should do it.
Agreed there will be people who will do the wrong thing and that is regrettable, it is also a human failing and a human characteristic lets not make people robots.
By doing so we will stifle great thinkers explorers and achievers.
Just my view.
D_d_001
Posts: 1522
Date Joined: 09/03/13
We seem to want to dictate to
We seem to want to dictate to the lowest common denominator.
Where does it end ....I just spent a week at the Monties...... got off the boat once onto a beach ....do I shower on the boat with a life jacket. sleep with one (yes some slept and showered while underway)
I count my time at sea in the years. (not the time I have had a boat or worked at sea but the actual time I have spent at sea) and I like to think there has to be a limit.
Educate the skipper and let the skipper do his job.
Grant Jones
Posts: 91
Date Joined: 17/08/13
Well said meglodon. I am
Well said meglodon. I am definitely tired of having to comply with laws created for people who dont take responsibility for their own actions. Nanny mentality.
It seems that we all fall under a blanket punishment agreement. Idiots litter the beach and we are all banned from camping or 4wding rather than targeting offenders with fines.
Someone drowns at penguin island because they could not swim AND ignored the signs and STILL entred the water ....result is compensation and calls for walking the sandbar to be prohibited for all of us.
Backpackers abusing parking at lanbased fishing spots... blanket punishment for all fishos by parking fines rather than moving on backpackers.
There are even calls for cokes/softdrink tax because too many people are unable to make the choice not to drink the stuff.
Why should the solution have to cost me more to drink a coke because others cant control their choices.
Not all of us are sheep.
Id rather see more adverts on tv educating people on the dangers of the ocean, how to swim out of a rip.,promoting swimming lessons and encouraging youngsters not to leave their corona bottles on the beach than the childish election campaign ads.
I agree though on laws for kids who are not old enough to make their own choices and whos parents cant be trusted to make for them. So compulsory life jackets for under a certain age makes sense.
My kids wear them fulltime.
Ashen
Posts: 1042
Date Joined: 22/03/13
Very good and valid points
Very good and valid points there, mate!
A fish in the hand is worth 10 in the water!
resurgence
Posts: 578
Date Joined: 23/04/14
Not about choices
The issue here isn't really about making stupid choices. All boats have to carry lifejackets and it's probably a reasonable assumption that most actually do. The real question is this - can the majority of people reliably determine when they need to don a lifejacket, and do it quickly enough when the shit hits the fan?
Rob H
Posts: 5817
Date Joined: 18/01/12
My understanding (from what
My understanding (from what others have written above) is that the coroner was talking about a case where the people had PFD2's not PFD1's-if they broke the law by not having PFD1's aboard they also likely wouldn't have worn them if told to.
The difference is that 1's should support your mouth above water I believe.
I do see a pattern in your debating here, in that most who do not agree with you are simply making a "poor argument"
How do you propose to word it so you do not have to wear them in a sleeping bag, or in an engineroom, or getting changed and M&H comes along in a bad mood?
Personally itd be better to mount an education program focussing on children and having the jackets "readily available"
I have a couple of manual inflatables which I do wear at times (alone or going thru breakers), but to be honest I wouldn't want to rely on one to float for 48hrs.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
resurgence
Posts: 578
Date Joined: 23/04/14
I knew it would generate some
I knew it would generate some debate, that's why I posted it.
The only poor argument I've seen so far has been the one put up a few times suggesting that it's not worthwhile because other measures may save more lives. That may be true, but if it saves lives it's still worthwhile doing.
In answer to your earlier question, no I don't wear mine all the time, nor do I ask my passengers to, the exception being small children. I consider myself a fairly cautious skipper. As I said elsewhere though, I think the real issue is whether people can get their lifejackets on in time when disaster strikes. I doubt there are many people who, given sufficient warning of danger, wouldn't have themselves and all on board don lifejackets in preparation. In the face of imminent danger, things can be quite different. People panic, make poor decisions, forget where gear is stored, or maybe simply don't have time. If I can make an analogy with seatbelts, the vast majority of the time I could drive around perfectly safely without my seat belt on. I've never been in a serious car accident. I believe I'm aware enough to spot potentially dangerous road situations before they happen. Does that make a compelling case that I don't have to wear my seatbelt all the time?
What I am genuinely interested in is what people see as the downside if mandatory life jackets were introduced. So far the majority of the arguments against have been about the individual wanting a choice on whether to wear life jackets or not. That's fair enough, but if/when more people die without life jackets that becomes a hard argument to maintain. If legislation allows for that choice, but no-one does, you really have to go back and re-assess whether that's appropriate. So far you are the only person to put forward some scenarios that could be considered a higher risk vs not wearing.
Elsewhere in this thread I made reference to legislation in NSW and Victoria regarding life jackets; they both contain similar wording. There are a few key points:
1. they distinguish between vessels of difference sizes. Smaller vessels have more stringent requirements.
2. they have different requirements for children under 12 and adults.
3. they differentiate between a vessel that is underway and a vessel that is stationary, such that lifejackets are not required when a vessel is stationary i.e. anchored.
4. they specify in most cases that lifejackets are mandatory in "open areas" of the vessel.
5. there are a few higher risk scenarios where lifejackets are mandatory for all on board - e.g. crossing bars, being towed, extreme weather warning conditions etc.
In my view they seem to be fairly well written and appear to have considered that different situations have different risks so there isn't a blanket mandatory requirement. In fact I think they cover most, or maybe all, of the scenarios you have suggested in which wearing a lifejacket might be more dangerous than not.
Madmerv
Posts: 672
Date Joined: 24/01/15
Point well made
I think the 2 main reasons for people not wanting a regulation in place are: 1. it takes away your rights. (where is the freedom gone) 2. they are uncomfortable.
As per your seat belt rule i tend to think that while under way it's not so bad. Most boats are not that big that they actually have an engine room or for that matter are underway for so long that a sleep is needed below decks.
As for comfort, well i have worked in them both up north, hot, humid as well as in Bass Straight, cold and wet. Bloody uncomfortable in both situations. Still just sitting in a seat or hanging on to a hand hold is most probably tolerable.
Sometimes when the water is quiet, you can hear the fish laughing at you !
D_d_001
Posts: 1522
Date Joined: 09/03/13
Resurgence Quote: "The only
Resurgence Quote: "The only poor argument I've seen so far has been the one put up a few times suggesting that it's not worthwhile because other measures may save more lives. That may be true, but if it saves lives it's still worthwhile doing"
Sorry but your logic is flawed......unless you actually believe that the list of "bans" I've written in one of the posts below ...(to MC) would be a good thing.
I personally believe that just because it "saves a life" it's not necessarily a good thing. We don't live in a vacuum and can never control everything. You MUST admit that there is ALWAYS a point where a lost life is "acceptable" (for want of a better word) tragedy for individuals of course. If you don't then your logic dictates that rec boating should be banned altogether....because of course this would ultimately save the most lives !
So saying poor argument is ridiculous because it's the only argument that matters.....we are just debating where the line should be put. And if/when more ppl die, maintaining that argument is no different from saying "I should have the choice as to whether I climb Mt Everest or not even though 20% who do die."
I may think differently to others here and one reason for that is that I have spent a good chunk of my life out in the middle of the ocean. most of the boats I have worked on the Skipper has been "GOD"
when he asks you to jump you don't ask how high you just jump as high as you can. Skipper has power. Skipper has final say. part of my thinking is that this coroner's recommendation would just erode (however tiny, a piece of the skippers judgment and therefore power.)
I see the reasoning behind the "seatbelts" argument a reasonable point on the surface but I see the two issues (seatbelts and compulsory wearing of jackets ) as vastly different situations, a notable point but again not comparable in reality.
I believe good safety precautions are in place and that the wearing of jackets is the skippers choice. Sad to say that had the individual in the instance in question followed the current safety precautions he would have stood a much better chance of survival.
Rob H
Posts: 5817
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Meg, D_d and Grant, with you
Meg, D_d and Grant, with you all the way.
Personal choice, or make newby skippers and under 12 wear one.
Definitely diagree with oldies though as someone suggested above.
If ANYONE has earned the right to decide, its a bloke who has reached a ripe old age whether by luck or good fortune.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
sea-kem
Posts: 15040
Date Joined: 30/11/09
By luck or good fortune.
By luck or good fortune. Well it aint that when they can't swim more than 5m when tipped into a cold ocean. I thought it was human imperative to look after our elderly and not take a callous view? If I was taking my old man out (if he was still here) he'd be wearing one no questions asked, because I know if he fell in he wouldn't have a chance and that would more than likely be the case for most blokes of a ripe old age. I'm not saying I agree with whole compulsory view but in some circumstances yes. You know as most of us do here the amount of boating mishaps off our coast with a good percentage ending in death.
Love the West!
carnarvonite
Posts: 8673
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Age and experience
When doing my Master 5 ticket part of which is the survival at sea bit where we had to done jackets and hop in to the water, one of the blokes, a crayfisherman who had worked on his fathers boat for 10 or so years since leaving school and couldn't swim yet had never in that time put a jacket on . It took a half hour to convince him it was safe to get in the pool with us.
If some people are that used to doing something there is no way they are going to change. Same goes for me, never once at sea have I ever felt the need to wear a lifejacket and only once a safety line when walking out a boom to flip a pacifier over in 4 metre seas when one minute your feet are nearly in the water and the next 30 feet up.
Grant Jones
Posts: 91
Date Joined: 17/08/13
What do you guys think about
What do you guys think about the skippers ticket. I recon its too easy.
Rob H
Posts: 5817
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Ive never done one so not
Ive never done one so not sure other to say that I personally have never heard of anyone failing.
I do think though, its main purpose is to impress upon new skippers their obligations, and a very basic knowledge of COLREGS.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Hutch
Posts: 2221
Date Joined: 21/04/13
When a mate and I did ours
When a mate and I did ours (junior RST) about 4 years ago there was a chick with us about 16 who got 12/30 in the theory (supposedly need 27/30 for a pass), and smashed the polycraft we were doing the practical in onto one of the boat pen pontoons leaving a sizeable dent yet still got passed and they just told her to keep studying the book and she'll get better at it over time.
This was with both aspects of the test already being rediculously easy
little johnny
Posts: 5362
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Lol skippers ticket
Doesn't teach launching and retrieving boat. Time to buy shares in life jacket company I think. Kids a must in my books.
mc
Posts: 91
Date Joined: 10/09/13
Not everyone has a lifetime
Not everyone has a lifetime of experience on the water who can easily spot danger, some fatalitites on the water are no doubt due to inexperience, if compulsory PFD's save one life then its a good call in my opinion. Surprised how many folks are against making boating safer, if the poor bloke who passed away was a mate or family member would you feel the same?
Rob H
Posts: 5817
Date Joined: 18/01/12
do you wear a PFD ALL the
do you wear a PFD ALL the time on the water now?
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
mc
Posts: 91
Date Joined: 10/09/13
No I dont, unless out solo,
No I dont, unless out solo, wouldnt complain if I had to.
resurgence
Posts: 578
Date Joined: 23/04/14
What is the point of this
What is the point of this question? If I say no, does it make the issue any more or less valid?
Rob H
Posts: 5817
Date Joined: 18/01/12
yes it sure does?If your
yes it sure does?
If your judgement is that you need a PFD on all the time then why dont you?
It would seem somewhat odd that you require a law to force you to do something which you already fervently believe you should be doing?
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
D_d_001
Posts: 1522
Date Joined: 09/03/13
MC Quote:"if compulsory PFD's
MC Quote:"if compulsory PFD's save one life then its a good call in my opinion. Surprised how many folks are against making boating safer,"
you know what could potentially save one more life....
restricting rec boating to 20NM offshore
not allowing "solo" boating
restricting boat use to over 21
not allowing boating after dark.
closing ramps for launch when the wind speed is over 12Knots
restricting rec boating to 10NM offshore
making boats compulsory to have aux motor
restricting rec boating to 5NM offshore
It's not that people are against making boating safer. I personally am against the slow removal of freedom of choice in our country.
And like I said before and what Grant Jones has also well put. regulating to the lowest point.
It does seem strange (I say again) that really the lesson learnt from the tragedy should focus on the fact that the deceased was WEARING incorrect PPE.
mc
Posts: 91
Date Joined: 10/09/13
Fair point, I just think the
Fair point, I just think the coroner views life jackets in the same regard as seatbelts, motorcycle helmets etc and I agree, they save lives. Most arguements against lifejackets in this thread are pretty much the same points being made against compulsory motorcycle helmets in the U.S in some states, freedom of choice etc. Most of us would think you're an idiot to ride without a helmet but many in the U.S don't. New safety regs always upset a few at the beginning, won't happen overnight, but if life jackets become compulsory, attitudes will eventually change once the stats prove they save lives.
Sea-weed
Posts: 90
Date Joined: 26/12/14
I thought it was compulsory
I thought it was compulsory for under 10?
bushbeaver
Posts: 159
Date Joined: 08/07/13
I wear a (manually inflating)
I wear a (manually inflating) PFD all the time when I'm out in my own boat, and ask passengers to do the same. I don't find wearing the PFD too much of a hassle. Though I've never faced a dire/life threatening situation at sea, I feel safer for wearing the PFD all the time anyway- but that's my personal choice.
What everybody else does on their own boat is up to them though: I don't think it necessarily needs to be legislated.
hezzy
Posts: 1521
Date Joined: 27/11/09
gotta agree with the nanny
gotta agree with the nanny state issue here
I would hate to see this become legislated and compulsory ,
if the skippers ticket doesn't educate you enough, then improve it , not make stupid blanket rules for all
how many of the uneducated might be emboldened by this rule to put themselves at more risk , with the oh its ok iv got the kids in life jackets rule , so I can go on even more dodgy days or more hairy places , cause we are all safe ??
seatbelts are good , but again how many peeps in the newer cars feel safer and speed abit faster because of them masking them feel safer ??or more protected
how common was it in the 60-70s to see people driving at 130km + hit forrest highway today and see it very often , yes we improved safety, but it has allowed us to step everything else up another notch too
for me , I only started at times to wear the jacket pfd type about 10years ago , mainly as I always have fished out in the boat very often by myself , and I figured if for some reason I was to fall over while drifting or underway I might struggle to catch the boat back up ,and get back onboard , so it became my choice ,when alone to do so
and it was not often even then
humans will continue to find ways to kill ourselves no matter what legislation is in place ,
I for one don't want any more rules removing my freedom of choice to think and decide for myself ,
people have died and will continue to do so , its tragic , but that is the way of the planet when you are alive and can make your own educated choice
and even when im old , id still like the choice to wear or not wear & potentially drown at sea or not to be mine , not anyone elses
much better end to my life than sitting in an nursing home being spoon fed having my shitty nappies changed for me , but everyone else thinking im happy and well looked after
hezzy
OFW 11
evil flourishes when good men do nothing
Red Dog
Posts: 311
Date Joined: 13/12/12
Yes, enough with all the
Yes, enough with all the goddam legislation, for F sake.
There's hardly a thing you can do nowadays without going online first and checking out 'THE REGULATIONS'.
So much of the push for more regulation is driven by commercial interests.
We've lost enough freedom in this country as it is - please leave me just a few more choices.
uncle
Posts: 9506
Date Joined: 10/02/07
Ok so how do all you skippers feel
About being forced to have an ebirb or flares etc and forced to have life jackets, I always have my jackets on the deck ready to grab not buried in the bowels of the boat out of reach. Have managed to still be here after 45 years as a boatie
all aggressive fish love bigjohnsjigs
sea-kem
Posts: 15040
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Ha ha you bloody old salt. I
Ha ha you bloody old salt. I reckon EPIRB is the best thing ever brought into legislation for boaties. It has proved to be a lifesaver.
Love the West!
Shane O
Posts: 926
Date Joined: 22/01/10
Jetski
I need to wear one doesn't matter if I'm in 2ft of water of 200ft. So why not just wear a manual jacket, we were one of helicopters and we are in a enclosed space...
sea-kem
Posts: 15040
Date Joined: 30/11/09
But not to be inflated until
But not to be inflated until clear of the chopper ;)
Love the West!
D_d_001
Posts: 1522
Date Joined: 09/03/13
we also had to do our HUET
we also had to do our HUET course for this does this mean we will have to do a similar thing for rec boating ?
Shane O
Posts: 926
Date Joined: 22/01/10
Common sense
I suppose people wont react or wont to wear one until it happens to them.
Cant see it being compulsory but will see i guess
cruzy111
Posts: 274
Date Joined: 08/10/13
Solo boating.
I think there needs to be more rules put on solo boating. I personally now carry my gps epirb in a small backpack on me whenever I am out in open ocean if solo boating. I dont wear a pfd but am considering it. It only takes one stuff up and your in the water. Livin in exmouth you see some things that leave you shakin your head on boating safety. 12 foot tinnys fishin for rubys and marlin miles out to sea. 12 foot tinnys at the islands. The amount of near drownings that have happened here and not been reported leaves you wondering, most of which have been people falling out of tinnys which is easy to do and not being able to get back in. Trust me MOST people cant get back in a tinny if they fall out. Another thing that makes me laugh is the straps on cheap lifejackets. The amount of jackets you see with deteriorated staps makes you laugh. One year out in the open and there stuffed. I gave up on cheap ones as even stored under floor in bags the straps deteriorated in less than 2 years ie turned powdery and broke with no effort. I have no problem if they make it compulsery. Theres some good jackets out there and they arnt bulky, just expensive thats why I dont have one.
Willlo
Posts: 1490
Date Joined: 07/10/11
Whateva happened to taking
Whateva happened to taking resposibility for your own actions. Read the play and act accordingly,far out i am sick of being told what i can and cant do .The govt love putting restrictions etc on everyone with not enough people to enforce there rules anyway.On a different note why cant the govt knock the tax off all safety gear ? At least then if we have to go out and buy new safety equipment it will hurt the wallet a bit less and may encourage people to get the latest gear.
Call Sign - BZ785
Haynes Hunter Prowler CC
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Well put Willo
If the regulators make it compulsory to carry safety gear, then the question needs to be asked, as it is not a discretionary purchase or luxury item why is there a tax on it.
D_d_001
Posts: 1522
Date Joined: 09/03/13
while I agree it would be
while I agree it would be great to remove tax on boating safety gear the reality is that it is actually a discretionary purchase. just like a motorbike helmet replacing bald tyres sitting for a licence etc.
uncle
Posts: 9506
Date Joined: 10/02/07
You'll love this one Rob
They were talking about compulsory alcohol ignition locks on all cars this morning, by some road safety mob
all aggressive fish love bigjohnsjigs
Jackfrost80
Posts: 8156
Date Joined: 07/05/12
I think you'll find the
I think you'll find the approach is for repeat drink drivers. Been 10 years in the making and the useless WA Govt still can't get it in costing many lives along the way
Officially off the Pies bandwagon
Cold Feet
Posts: 120
Date Joined: 04/08/15
Spend a bit on lifejacket design,
and make the jackets a bit cheaper, and more comfortable and smaller to wear, or de-restrict the PFD 1 down for rec boating to something that makes sense, like a floating ski vest that works, but does not make you into a tellytubby, and maybe more people would wear them..
Also Kids should always have jackets on IMHO.
I also enjoy having the freedom to make my own choices though, but some people just dont have any common sense.
Letting the state dictacte laws that infringe on the average resonable persons pleasure/hobby, just because a few dickheads dont do the right thing is shit.
Cheers,
Cold Feet
D_d_001
Posts: 1522
Date Joined: 09/03/13
you should probably read the
you should probably read the link attached up top.
It looks like the reason for the fatality is directly linked to the fact that the deceased was not wearing a type 1 but a type 2 jacket. Not the fact that he wasn't wearing one or couldn't get one on in time.
Ofcourse making them cheaper like you say and taking the tax off safety equip as already mentioned would help.
Deckie
Posts: 1296
Date Joined: 03/04/09
Inflatable vests.
I personally can't see the problem with Inflatable vests.
They are much better than the older conventional style and I think much more comfortable to wear.
Again it comes down to personal choice, but I think the skipper has a responsibility to ensure all children are wearing them.
Like I said it is a personal choice, but if something happens & one of the people in the water could not swim properly or hold heir own in water for a given time without one, then don't be the fool that complains because help did not get there quick enough.
We often see the life jackets stowed away up front under the bow or even under the floor out of the way. From a sea rescue point of view, it is foolish to believe that they can be accessed in an emergency. Given that an emergency means a sudden incident that does not allow you to stand there, pick your nose & think about what should be done.
Think about the possible outcome & make the change so your passengers on board remain safe & also feel safe.
It is not a fashion parade out there & a human life cannot be replaced.
IMO......
Cheers & Stay safe
bradz
Posts: 693
Date Joined: 29/10/07
Legislation
In my opinion Legislation about safety matters should really only be brought in when the actions of an individual put others at risk.
So, seat belts, while I agree are brilliant, shouldnt be mandatory.
Bike helmets, while they save lives, shouldnt be mandatory.
Speeding...kill yourself if you want but because you are risking lives of others.... legislated.
Life jackets, save lives but shouldnt be mandatory, except for minors (young age)
Epirbs, help shorten the time that rescuers are risking their own lives searching and as such are brilliant and should be legislated.
Perhaps this is a little simplistic but at the end of the day we need to be responsible for our own actions. Having said that, I have recently started wearing a waist mounted PFD1 at all times when on the boat (unless on the river). Shit can happen very quickly and that is a decision that I have made.
I did then the best that I knew how. When I knew better, I did better.
Starbug
Posts: 563
Date Joined: 27/08/09
Having read the report there
Having read the report there were, as is often the case a cluster of failures.
Boat suddenly took on water, probably due to a mechanical or structural failure.
Jackets available were either incorrect type or size to support an adult male.
None or the passengers new how to operate the EPIRB.
Not Logged on to sea rescue.
This last point would not have hastened the rescue, but it does at least test if your radio is operational and on the correct frequency. Apparently a mayday was attempted but not received, as the batteries were at this time compromised/radio not working/ incorrect frequency.
If you want to read further
http://www.coronerscourt.wa.gov.au/I/inquest_into_the_death_of_paul_gregory_clifton.aspx?uid=2967-4963-5104-6193
There is a link to the full report PDF at the bottom of the page.
Interesting to note the deceased was trapped in the bow, by the windscreen and bimini and went under with the boat. If he was wearing a life jacket he would have been trapped and probably never have surfaced.
grantarctic1
Posts: 2546
Date Joined: 03/03/11
I dont know
I don't know how I feel on the matter. One part of me says yes they should be mandatory, then I also think as an adult I should be able to make decisions on my own.
The only thing I'm really sure of is, I'm sick of being told what I have to do by a over regulated nanny state.
Personally , all children, non swimmers or people who might have an issue being in the water, wear life jackets on my boat or they don't get on it.
I also put my jacket on at times when solo or in rough weather etc .
Saulty2
Posts: 659
Date Joined: 28/05/10
mandatory scenario
couple of mates leaves jetty with pfd on, travels 4ks out takes pfd off , goes for a dive ?WTF ? IMO common sense should prevail you go out favourable weather and if conditions gets rough put on life jacket . try wearing one for 2-3 hours on a hot day.
bigmick
Posts: 77
Date Joined: 04/02/13
I have an inflateable PFD
I have an inflateable PFD that I always wear if I'm out on my own, not so concerned about it if I have someone with me. The inflateable ones aren't that much of a nuisence to wear and I'm thinking about getting one of those ones that are built into a wet weather jacket for use in winter time
bigmick
Posts: 77
Date Joined: 04/02/13
I have an inflateable PFD
I have an inflateable PFD that I always wear if I'm out on my own, not so concerned about it if I have someone with me. The inflateable ones aren't that much of a nuisence to wear and I'm thinking about getting one of those ones that are built into a wet weather jacket for use in winter time
Saulty2
Posts: 659
Date Joined: 28/05/10
big mick!
is it the one that you pull the cord and it inflates? cause i have one and often wonder what if i ever need it and it doesnt inflate , or are they fail proof?
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Non inflation of life jacket
If you survive the emergency that required you to use your life jacket and it didn't inflate.
Take it back for a re-fund. LOL, sorry couldn't help myself
barneyboy
Posts: 1392
Date Joined: 08/01/09
fools and
1st shippers sit on ships rails...
should be a personal choice.
if you don't think you are capable wear 1..
FEEEISH ONNN!!!
Karak
Posts: 111
Date Joined: 22/06/13
Use your pants as a life
Use your pants as a life jacket.
www.youtube.com/watch
gageroads23
Posts: 17
Date Joined: 12/03/10
PFD type 1
As PDF type 1 is already legislated and people choose not to comply what makes you think that they would comply with further legislation.
When you think about it there are many more dangerous situations on the water than not wearing a life jacket full time.
gageroads23
Doooma
Posts: 791
Date Joined: 05/12/09
Way to many people die at
Way to many people die at work.... Therefore we should ban all work!!! It will save lives!!
someone died choking on food... Therefore we should ban all forms of eating!!
where does it end?
oh yeah, when it costs the government too much and not the public!!
Hairyone
Posts: 246
Date Joined: 26/12/09
Where do you stop?
I reckon if the government continues to think for everyone , people will stop thinking for themselves altogether.
What's wrong with running a safety campaign on life jacket safety, making people aware of the new type of jackets available and the dangers of wearing and not wearing life jackets and letting people make their own decision on what's best in their situation?
Where do you stop? Wearing a crash helmet, PLB, and a shark shield would be safer too.........
Im quite capable of making my own decision when to wear a PFD thanks.
Cheers
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Todays Sunday times
There is an article in todays Sunday Times about some of the options the regulators are looking at, fingers crossed that a bit of common sense will prevail.