Recfishwest put out a promotional video on the use of release weights and the effect of barotrauma on Dhuies and I think as rec-fishers we should be using that as a reference rather than relying on information from other sources. To see vid. I just typed in' Release Weights Recfishwest'.
That's pretty cool..... Kinda wonder why different fish are affected different ways..... Maybe the less affected fish spend more time moving up and down the water column where as the worse off ones stay solely on the bottom...... Wonder how many released fish do actually survive??
Perhaps fisheries should invest in doing the same kind of thing with a lot more species. I sent down 5 dhuies in one trip with the release weight about two weeks ago and that was in forty plus metres.
Gotta make people stop and think about catch and releasing dhuies after they get their 2 to keep.....I know golden snapper are a different species but I think the best policy is to ge the demersal fish you want then move on the pelagics or other.
In a perfect world yes. I would catch my 2 dhuies 2 pinkies and 2 Baldies with my 3 crew and move on. But in the real world you would probably pull up half a dozen undersize whatever to get that bag. No easy solution on this one.
I know plenty of 3 crew boats that take their 2 dhu and leave to ground that doesnt hold dhu....saves fish for next time...but I supposed they just care more about what they do to the stocks then they do about what they put in their esky each to their own
I find that strange with snapper. I release many small blue lined emperors out here always winding up slowly to allow them to adjust and they swim away just fine. Do the same with cod and they just float right back again
PEW , this vid stinks. Sorry to members that think this is intresting.
Fish put inside a square mesh cage is not a true capture and release . They were clearly hitting the cage and doing damage to selves. And wow all those fish, inside a cage atracted a shark !!! .
And when you kill and fillet a fish its bladder or spleen probally won't look normal .
Sorry if I offend anyone but this is not science. This is propaganda in my opinion. Please correct me if i am wrong . Cheers Grant
Spot on Grant. I was thinking the same thing. Damaged fish shoved into a cage will attract sharks and where's the proof this fish was released from whatever depth. Load of malarky in my opinion.
"And when you kill and fillet a fish its bladder or spleen probally won't look normal"
Fair enough, but from what I can tell this video was produced by the NT Department of Resources, and presumably by their Fisheries scientists so I doubt that those fish were discarded frames after filleting but more likely caught and discected by professionals.
We've all seen dhuies with their stomach poking out of their mouths and blues with their intestines hanging out, surely you could admit that they would have internal damage after having internal organs become external organs?
Yes i can admit fish will suffer internal damage. Some fish more than others, My point is more about the credibillity of the video. There is no real info to go with the clip, it just seems random with no real explanation of the so called study .
how about I stick a hook in your lip rip you up as fast as I can with a big deck winch and then stick you back in the water with a release weight and see how you swim off the video you and see if you swim off, every research done I australia comes back with the same result for a reason demersals have a tragic recovery rate when released regardless of the conditions...
and your probably right but to say that is disputing that catch and release does serious damage to demersal fish stocks, fish aint made anatomically to be hauled to the surface and then sent back down. Sure there is always going to be by-catch but ffs to sit here and declare that we dont believe we are doing damage is the same as abbott saying we are not having some effect in the temp just cause the proof has holes in it.... if you care more about your freezer then all well and good its within your rights...but to dispute that we damave fish without really good evidence is just a pile of crap...and worse for me when it is out of people like you and sea, whoms opionions I generally hold fairly highly on here...
I have suffered multiple barrotrauma I know what they do to you, I know how their lasting affects stuff you. Im not a fish sure but my guess is that most people that argue that the fish survive and that the results are wrong have either forgotten or never had a burst ear drum. It messes with you a lot worse then one would think...
A more educated view for all is what is needed, the prattling of we tag fish and our recapture rate is good doesnt sit with me, to be perfectly honest no one has as much reason to bent the facts as the people that do that type of fishing, maybe actual stats may make a believer of me, but im doubtfull, I for one have never even seen a tagged dhu...abd I fished professionally for years...
On another point barrotrauma and being bent etc are all very different things, sure sending the fish back to the bottom will reverse some of the effects but far from all as it actually does have the ability to do physical damage.
I don't think the effects of barotrauma are in dispute here & I am all for healthy debate about what we can do as rec's to sustain our fishery. I know you want your kids to be able to fish in the future as do I but I think you have played the man not the ball on this one & for some reason Grant was your target.
As I mentioned in my first post about pressure to manipulate stats to reflect what someone else wants rather than the actual outcome is all encompassing & therefore I am a sceptic to most studies & this shitty video is no exception with antiquated disproven techniques of holding fish for further monitoring (plus the ambivalence on methods blah blah blah)
I am a fan of ANSA & have seen the results of tagged Dhu's (moving big km's down here) but there is only a very small % of people doing it & it relies on others that recapture to do the right thing. Basically I, like you would love to see proper independent research without vested interest plus more education for the rec. but money talks & bullshit walks...
Whilst you may have fished commercially for years... it doesn't therefore mean that you have any more chance of catching a tagged dhufish than anyone else, in fact the reverse is probably true as the tagging programmes are very small with only a few anglers taking part and it is generally confined to reasonably shallow metro waters. So unless your commercial vessel has been fishing in waters where it isn't allowed (i am talking metro perth waters in the last few years specifically) it has had buckleys chance of catching one of my tagged dhuies or any of the other tagger's fish.
Why would I bend the facts???? what is the incentive for me to bend the facts that we have recaptured a few fish and when it happens I post a pic or two to help educate people about "good fish handling technique"?. If I came on here and said we recaptured 20% or 30% of our tagged fish then I perhaps would be a little suspect. The truth is we don;t fish every day, week or even every month sometimes, we fish hundreds of different spots, lifting one or two dhuies here and there and may only refish that same spot a few times a year. So there is a reasonably low chance of even me recapturing a fish just based on the amount of times I fish those spots.
Looking at it another way, by my logic, if a dhufish can grow to 20+ kgs and an age of 40years or so (evading hooks for all that time but staying relatively close to it's home turf), how the hell is that possible? As you clearly believe that the reason the numbers of recaptures are small as a percentage is because all the fish must die even when released correctly. Well maybe its just those tagged fish are a little gun shy and like those fish that grow to 10 or 20kg before being caught plus those fish that are still out there ,they have evaded the hooks all this time and perhaps may end up growing to 10 or 20kgs one day.
I hear what you are saying, but you are taking an extreme view by dismissing the good work being done to improve survival.
I 100% agree barotrauma is bad and definitely does effect fishes survival rates, but I think that knocking fisho's that tag and release fish for science to better understand the effects of barotrauma is very naive. We don't do it to brag, we do it to help the scientists better manage the resource that we all love. I see no valid reason to suggest taggers would inflate the data for any reason at all unless we all had shares in release weight manufacturing or something. In fact the select few that do it are all long time fisho's who are doing it to give something back to the sport they love.
If you choose to dismiss all evidence of recaptures to say that it is somehow a propaganda thing, that's up to you. It is but a small piece of the jigsaw that helps our fisheries managers decide how to best manage our stocks in the face of every increasing pressure as our population grows.
Take a BALANCED AND UNBIASED view and you all of a sudden have some incentive to actually try and do the right thing.
Take a BIASED view that all fish die and you destroy that incentive to do the right thing and by default are subliminally encouraging people to rip up the fish as fast as they can and grab them by the eye sockets to rip the hook out then chuck the fish 20m away so the mutton birds can have something to peck at while you drop your nest bait down trying to upsize your necked 50cm dhuie that's sitting in the esky. All the while thinking "they all die anyway so whats the problem". That my friend is the danger of taking a BIASED AND UNBALANCED view.
Hopefully you will read this response in the way in which it is intended ie a bit of perspective, and not an attack on you personally. You hold your views as each of us do, based on our own individual experiences and many will share those views based on their experiences.. hopefully one day someone will help you see the problem in a different light. All I ask is that you be open minded about the issue and see that the taggers aren't the enemy they are genuinely trying to do the right thing.
Seriously have you even read my post ? To you and anyone else that has made the assumption i skull drag fish to the surface and don't give a shit about fishing for the future. Go get F#cked !!!!
I am all for the studies to be done and support them fully. I, also like many others on here don't continue to fish for demersals once bag or boat limits are reached. Most of my gear is very light and demersals are brought up slowly to give them the best chance of release ( Not the deck whinch you claim i use )
My comments ( once again i have to explain to you ) were about the video having no links, information or any other tags to support what it was stating. The only thing linking it was the page owner ( Northern Teritory Government . ) And without links to validate the video, or that it is actualy a government site i choose to be sceptical about studies done with fish in cages .( With no links, with no information .)
I have not , nor ever have diputed that fish get damaged by catch and release , I do not care about fillets in my freezer, I am all for studies to be done properly and the evidence provided to the public .
So i ask you to stop ranting on about things I HAVE NOT SAID . All the other member on this thread have debated without getting nasty or personal but you have attacked me with ranting , unfounded dribble ...
THIS video is the exact reason I cringe when fishermen on this site say something to the effect of "Yeah we caught our bag limit of Dhufish, but we caught another 12 Dhu for fun and released every one, catch and release tho!". You're doing more harm than good.
I have questioned and argued the survival rate of fish from barotrauma for a long timebeing poor, this video shows exactly why.
If you have your bag limit, change species for the the day. If love to catch and release demersal fish from over 10m for 'fun', stop being a hero!
There is no proof in this video Notorious that the fish shown is suffering Barotrauma. The god damn thing could be sick for all we know and in it's death throws. If fisheries come s up with some solid proof that dhuies suffer this then something needs to be done. Until then I'm a sceptic.
What's your problem Wadray? Someone put some shit on you today and you need to vent? Maybe you should think out a more measured reply before putting shit on people. Stick it up your arse pal.
It's a youtube video, were are the credentials? statements? peer reviews? clear variables?
A small part of my work is data collection & interpretation for work activity, if it doesn't go someones way the amount of times you are asked to manipulate the stats in their favour or throw in red herring's to detract from the actual outcome is pretty bad.
Wasn't there a study done that was actually discredited for placing dhuies in cages to measure the effects of barotrauma, the survival rate was shockingly low but it was discovered the cage was one of the major contributors. We have tagged fish that IMO were suffering severe barotrauma had doubts they would last long only to recapture them. (different release method than the weight & I agree John sometimes it's the out of sight issue with them but it's a better chance of survival than belly up)
I think we should all have a healthy dose of scepticism when it comes to any study, let alone a video on you tube that clearly has 'regression towards the mean'.
I would love to see some real money put towards an unbias study for this with a large pool, repeated testing & different environments
Some with fairly bad barotrauma and have seen many recaptured. I have a dhu thats undersize in 40 plus meters that came up with a novice at the same time I was tied up with a good fish on the other side of the boat.It came up to fast and had bad eyes,raised scales ect. It was sent back down while still on the rig about 10 meters for a couple of minutes while I got everything sorted out. Then bought up slowly and tagged,it was recaptured a few months later all fine and released again. If handled correctly and with respect they have a very good chance. As far as release weights go I put it this way.If you are a diver and you come up to quick,end up in a bad way are you going to sit on the couch with a beer and a panadol or go straight to the chamber? I think I know the answer. As far as the validity of cage fish research the only way it will work is if you have a test subject that has been captured at the release depth and placed in a cage as a control subject. I am as sure as that fish will be destressed and attract sharks and may even go belly up as well. Crap way to research anything.IMO. As a bit of a disclaimer before some of you start ranting,I only tag undersize fish or anything caught while targeting other species.I handle the fish with extreme care and as little as I can. I have seen many fish that I have tagged as being in a poor shape recaptured and some times several times. IMO stupidity kills more fish than anything else. Rip a fish up flat out ,then grab it by the jaw ,pull it in and drop it on a hot deck in straight sunlight.Grab a fair of pliers and pull half its face off trying to get a 50c hook back its always going to be screwed.
I too have been acutely interested in the effects of barotrauma for many years. Footage like this without the accompanying scientific paper that tells you more than just the depth and a few fish looking disoriented is counterproductive in my view. Sure it may be good propoganda to warn fisho's of these effects but it does very little to explain the cause of barotrauma and how to minmise it.
Make no mistake... batotrauma is very real and will kill fish if you don't take the appropriate care to minimise the effects.
1. Slow retrieve (no skull dragging)
2. decompression stop 10m, 5m, 2m (look for bubbles being released from fishes anus.
3. Minimise time on deck (get everything ready for release while the fish is still in the water.)
4. Release with a release weight or if the fish has been decompressed and shows minimal signs of barotrauma a simple release will suffice.
5. Simple release doesn't mean chucking the fish back over the side, it means holding the fish face down by the tail and letting the fish get re-orientated ofr a minute. Plenty swim back down strongly under their own steam if handled correctly.
If the fish in video were skull dragged and left languishing on the deck for 10mins while they shoved them into a metal cage, perhaps there were contributing factors to the appearance of some of those fish.
The fact that they used the shark footage clearly points to this being a propoganda video. Sure it makes a valid point about damaged fish being a prime target for predators but its a bit skewed in terma of scientific evidence as any fish trapped in a cage is going to show nervousness and attract predators wether they have barotrauma or not.
Bottom line guys is retrieve slow, deco stop, minimal time out of water and back down with a release weight if possible. I have personally recaptured 4 dhufish that I have tagged myself in 40m+ depth so they do survive with the right care.
My only hope is that this video encourages members to use these techniques and minimize the effects of barotrauma so we have a fishery to look forward to for many generations to come.
It was released the first time a few months back.Recaptured on the 5th and then again yesterday. I have a few tags in now so will put all the data on the site in the next couple of days.
Any idea how undersized red emperor handle barotrauma? We have no option to allow decompression up here cos the sharks will take your fish. Some days I may release 5 or 6 undersize reds whilst trying to catch a couple big ones. Reds are from the same family, so are they likely to suffer the same symptoms? They usually seem to swim back down quite quickly.
That is the way it appears. We skull drag the fish to avoid sharks, yet they appear to be quite healthy on the relase. Cod and chinaman are terrible. They get barotrauma in 20 metres.
Looks like they are just doing a general education campaign to get people to consider barotrauma when fishing. I don't think this is a bad thing, and if people get encouraged to learn how to handle fish better so that they can continue catch and release with a higher survival rate then all the better.
I imagine that they would get sharked pretty quickly in the NT with a slow retrieve and a deco stop though.
Their "control" in the video was the fish caught from 10m. They did look healthier than the fish from deeper water, but as has been said a lot of times, the short vid is only a snapshot of the work that was done.
Bring the fish up slowly is a big help but when you see on TV fishing shows where the angler sprouts off about giving the fish heaps to get it up quickly isn't really the cause much good.
The use of lighter lines, though I dislike them, tuna circle hooks and finding a way to stop anglers "upsizing" their catch will go a long way towards saving the lives of many good fish that otherwise turn in to food for the bottom dwellers
as well. Trevally with bent tails,picked up by the lower jaw ect. Sambos and Amberjacks with bent necks after being picked up by the tail and held upright using the jig ect. Had one deckie that picked up a undersize Dhu by the eye spocket ,A MAJOR pet hate of mine,ripped the hook out a chucked it over the side about 3m from the edge of the boat. It swam away (not sure how it went long term) That was the second drift of the morning. The boat was on the trailer at 8am and a guy I have known for years now no longer fishes with me.
So instead of intsructing him on the correct way to handle the fish, you have now let him go on somewhere else.... to continue doing the wrong thing???
I dont mean to have a dig.... or sound like it... but that would have been a perfect opportunity to give him some obviously badly needed knowledge!!
Obviously Im commenting and I dont know what happened behind the scenes... You may very well have done that, and he may have acted like a complete tosser.... If you did.. I tip my hat!
He went on a rant about how he does things and ended up on the ramp.The other guy and I went on to catch a few good fish a bit closer to home.As far as I know he doesnt fish much anymore.
I'm curious as to how they managed to release more than one fish at a time???
As all who tag and release have stated the fish needs to go back down asap... How would you get more than one fish in the cage unless you were putting them in a live well while you pulled up a couple more?
Ahhhh, ok. Didn't even think of that... It does however state at the start of the video that the fish were caught using conventional methods and circle hooks?
The minor points and variables of the 'research' done in the video can be argued for days till the cows come home. The fact of the matter is, we all need to be mindful of what goes on in the water. Just because the fish appears to swim off healthy doesnt mean it has survived. Barotrauma kills fish, you cant argue that.
I praise you blokes that take great pride in catch care and doing the right thing. I have been on a boat with some lino's that burst the swim bladder of fish with the knife tip and let the fish swim away.
I know a couple of the blokes involved in the science behind these videos and I can assure you that realistic practices are used in obtaining their data.
They are not out to ban fishing but more to raise awareness of what effect catching multiple fish has on fish stocks. It was a major factor in keeping bag limit on the Golden Snapper at 5 per person.
Black Jews are the same and I believe that even the river mullaway are hit hard.
I seem to remember a effort 10 years of so ago to catch some river broodstock for a breeding program but every black wall reach mulla died.
I believe they eventually targeted a few fish in shallow water for their stock.
I always thought that goldies were pretty hardy. I have put a lot of fish back in ~ 15m when they tend to school up. I will think twice when I am up there next time.
Some fish are sooks, even black jews caught in creeks take a fair bit of reviving at times, big threadies too, yet Reds caught in 60 metres seem to be healthy as, catch a Scarlet out of the same water? No chance. As for release weights you can't help but feel the damage has already been done which makes the max limit on cod questionable at certain depths I reckon.
The view expressed in this post is that of a self opinionated bullshitter and does not reflect that of this website, it's owners, mediators, other members or anyone else for that matter :-P
My Grandad used to have a saying " Believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see" Lamby has pretty well spelled out my thoughts on this. I'm a Nazi on my boat when it comes to fish conservation,release etc. We do our best to release fish soundly but at the end of the day we (all the boats that go out for a fish) are out there to get a feed and there will be casualties it's just part of the game. All we can do is try to minimise what we do in regards damage to unwanted or undersize fish.
sammy85
Posts: 831
Date Joined: 31/08/10
Interesting thanks for
Interesting thanks for sharing. Make you wonder how all those dhuies go back that get released.
Plumber and gas fitter- 0415489103
Howard George
Posts: 544
Date Joined: 10/03/11
Recfishwest Release Weights.sammy85
Recfishwest put out a promotional video on the use of release weights and the effect of barotrauma on Dhuies and I think as rec-fishers we should be using that as a reference rather than relying on information from other sources. To see vid. I just typed in' Release Weights Recfishwest'.
Cortez474
Posts: 109
Date Joined: 24/01/12
That's pretty cool.....
That's pretty cool..... Kinda wonder why different fish are affected different ways..... Maybe the less affected fish spend more time moving up and down the water column where as the worse off ones stay solely on the bottom...... Wonder how many released fish do actually survive??
bsir
Posts: 572
Date Joined: 24/04/11
Good info
Thanks
kelsea
Posts: 134
Date Joined: 14/02/12
Research
Perhaps fisheries should invest in doing the same kind of thing with a lot more species. I sent down 5 dhuies in one trip with the release weight about two weeks ago and that was in forty plus metres.
Ocean bound is where I'll be found
JohnF
Posts: 2841
Date Joined: 07/07/10
Gotta make people stop and
Gotta make people stop and think about catch and releasing dhuies after they get their 2 to keep.....I know golden snapper are a different species but I think the best policy is to ge the demersal fish you want then move on the pelagics or other.
Boston Whaler 235 Conquest......getting the flogging it was built for.
Notorious
Posts: 914
Date Joined: 23/02/12
Well said John!
Well said John!
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sea-kem
Posts: 15144
Date Joined: 30/11/09
In a perfect world yes. I
In a perfect world yes. I would catch my 2 dhuies 2 pinkies and 2 Baldies with my 3 crew and move on. But in the real world you would probably pull up half a dozen undersize whatever to get that bag. No easy solution on this one.
Love the West!
WADRay
Posts: 301
Date Joined: 20/12/09
I know plenty of 3 crew
I know plenty of 3 crew boats that take their 2 dhu and leave to ground that doesnt hold dhu....saves fish for next time...but I supposed they just care more about what they do to the stocks then they do about what they put in their esky each to their own
big john
Posts: 8772
Date Joined: 20/07/06
Nice cheap shot
Must be awesome to be that good (plenty of people as well) that you just rock up and bang, bang, 2 dhu and nothing undersize.
Any chance these guys could share their tips and tricks with the fishwrecked mob who don't care about fish stocks?
WA based manufacturer and supplier of premium leadhead jigs, fligs, bucktail jigs, 'bulletproof' soft plastic jig heads and XOS bullet jig heads.
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sea-kem
Posts: 15144
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Thanks for backing me up BJ
Thanks for backing me up BJ I wasn't going to respond to his obvious crap.
Love the West!
aalfred
Posts: 669
Date Joined: 13/06/09
Thanks
Very intresting!
Brucesta
Posts: 1721
Date Joined: 29/05/09
I find that strange with
I find that strange with snapper. I release many small blue lined emperors out here always winding up slowly to allow them to adjust and they swim away just fine. Do the same with cod and they just float right back again
Las Vegas - Rolling the dice and trying your luck. 1M+ Barra summer target. 100kg Black Marlin winter target
Brucesta
Posts: 1721
Date Joined: 29/05/09
I find that strange with
.
Las Vegas - Rolling the dice and trying your luck. 1M+ Barra summer target. 100kg Black Marlin winter target
Brucesta
Posts: 1721
Date Joined: 29/05/09
I find that strange with
I wonder how quick they where retrieved to the surface to be that bad too?
Las Vegas - Rolling the dice and trying your luck. 1M+ Barra summer target. 100kg Black Marlin winter target
grantarctic1
Posts: 2546
Date Joined: 03/03/11
PEW
PEW , this vid stinks. Sorry to members that think this is intresting.
Fish put inside a square mesh cage is not a true capture and release . They were clearly hitting the cage and doing damage to selves. And wow all those fish, inside a cage atracted a shark !!! .
And when you kill and fillet a fish its bladder or spleen probally won't look normal .
Sorry if I offend anyone but this is not science. This is propaganda in my opinion. Please correct me if i am wrong . Cheers Grant
Notorious
Posts: 914
Date Joined: 23/02/12
The fish that were upside
The fish that were upside down, clearly struggling, would be in the same state if they were outside a cage
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sea-kem
Posts: 15144
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Spot on Grant. I was
Spot on Grant. I was thinking the same thing. Damaged fish shoved into a cage will attract sharks and where's the proof this fish was released from whatever depth. Load of malarky in my opinion.
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kmo
Posts: 127
Date Joined: 17/01/12
"And when you kill and fillet
"And when you kill and fillet a fish its bladder or spleen probally won't look normal"
Fair enough, but from what I can tell this video was produced by the NT Department of Resources, and presumably by their Fisheries scientists so I doubt that those fish were discarded frames after filleting but more likely caught and discected by professionals.
We've all seen dhuies with their stomach poking out of their mouths and blues with their intestines hanging out, surely you could admit that they would have internal damage after having internal organs become external organs?
grantarctic1
Posts: 2546
Date Joined: 03/03/11
True
Yes i can admit fish will suffer internal damage. Some fish more than others, My point is more about the credibillity of the video. There is no real info to go with the clip, it just seems random with no real explanation of the so called study .
WADRay
Posts: 301
Date Joined: 20/12/09
how about I stick a hook in
how about I stick a hook in your lip rip you up as fast as I can with a big deck winch and then stick you back in the water with a release weight and see how you swim off the video you and see if you swim off, every research done I australia comes back with the same result for a reason demersals have a tragic recovery rate when released regardless of the conditions...
grantarctic1
Posts: 2546
Date Joined: 03/03/11
WTF
WTF are you on about ? No need to get nasty mate . I am only saying the video has no information to validate the research it claims to be about.
WADRay
Posts: 301
Date Joined: 20/12/09
and your probably right but
and your probably right but to say that is disputing that catch and release does serious damage to demersal fish stocks, fish aint made anatomically to be hauled to the surface and then sent back down. Sure there is always going to be by-catch but ffs to sit here and declare that we dont believe we are doing damage is the same as abbott saying we are not having some effect in the temp just cause the proof has holes in it.... if you care more about your freezer then all well and good its within your rights...but to dispute that we damave fish without really good evidence is just a pile of crap...and worse for me when it is out of people like you and sea, whoms opionions I generally hold fairly highly on here...
Lamby
Posts: 3145
Date Joined: 04/08/09
Ray - I have read Grants
Ray - I have read Grants posts followed by your replies & I am at a loss to make any connection
WADRay
Posts: 301
Date Joined: 20/12/09
I have suffered multiple
I have suffered multiple barrotrauma I know what they do to you, I know how their lasting affects stuff you. Im not a fish sure but my guess is that most people that argue that the fish survive and that the results are wrong have either forgotten or never had a burst ear drum. It messes with you a lot worse then one would think...
A more educated view for all is what is needed, the prattling of we tag fish and our recapture rate is good doesnt sit with me, to be perfectly honest no one has as much reason to bent the facts as the people that do that type of fishing, maybe actual stats may make a believer of me, but im doubtfull, I for one have never even seen a tagged dhu...abd I fished professionally for years...
On another point barrotrauma and being bent etc are all very different things, sure sending the fish back to the bottom will reverse some of the effects but far from all as it actually does have the ability to do physical damage.
Lamby
Posts: 3145
Date Joined: 04/08/09
I don't think the effects of
I don't think the effects of barotrauma are in dispute here & I am all for healthy debate about what we can do as rec's to sustain our fishery. I know you want your kids to be able to fish in the future as do I but I think you have played the man not the ball on this one & for some reason Grant was your target.
As I mentioned in my first post about pressure to manipulate stats to reflect what someone else wants rather than the actual outcome is all encompassing & therefore I am a sceptic to most studies & this shitty video is no exception with antiquated disproven techniques of holding fish for further monitoring (plus the ambivalence on methods blah blah blah)
I am a fan of ANSA & have seen the results of tagged Dhu's (moving big km's down here) but there is only a very small % of people doing it & it relies on others that recapture to do the right thing. Basically I, like you would love to see proper independent research without vested interest plus more education for the rec. but money talks & bullshit walks...
Andy Mac
Posts: 4778
Date Joined: 03/02/06
Tagging in perspective
Whilst you may have fished commercially for years... it doesn't therefore mean that you have any more chance of catching a tagged dhufish than anyone else, in fact the reverse is probably true as the tagging programmes are very small with only a few anglers taking part and it is generally confined to reasonably shallow metro waters. So unless your commercial vessel has been fishing in waters where it isn't allowed (i am talking metro perth waters in the last few years specifically) it has had buckleys chance of catching one of my tagged dhuies or any of the other tagger's fish.
Why would I bend the facts???? what is the incentive for me to bend the facts that we have recaptured a few fish and when it happens I post a pic or two to help educate people about "good fish handling technique"?. If I came on here and said we recaptured 20% or 30% of our tagged fish then I perhaps would be a little suspect. The truth is we don;t fish every day, week or even every month sometimes, we fish hundreds of different spots, lifting one or two dhuies here and there and may only refish that same spot a few times a year. So there is a reasonably low chance of even me recapturing a fish just based on the amount of times I fish those spots.
Looking at it another way, by my logic, if a dhufish can grow to 20+ kgs and an age of 40years or so (evading hooks for all that time but staying relatively close to it's home turf), how the hell is that possible? As you clearly believe that the reason the numbers of recaptures are small as a percentage is because all the fish must die even when released correctly. Well maybe its just those tagged fish are a little gun shy and like those fish that grow to 10 or 20kg before being caught plus those fish that are still out there ,they have evaded the hooks all this time and perhaps may end up growing to 10 or 20kgs one day.
I hear what you are saying, but you are taking an extreme view by dismissing the good work being done to improve survival.
I 100% agree barotrauma is bad and definitely does effect fishes survival rates, but I think that knocking fisho's that tag and release fish for science to better understand the effects of barotrauma is very naive. We don't do it to brag, we do it to help the scientists better manage the resource that we all love. I see no valid reason to suggest taggers would inflate the data for any reason at all unless we all had shares in release weight manufacturing or something. In fact the select few that do it are all long time fisho's who are doing it to give something back to the sport they love.
If you choose to dismiss all evidence of recaptures to say that it is somehow a propaganda thing, that's up to you. It is but a small piece of the jigsaw that helps our fisheries managers decide how to best manage our stocks in the face of every increasing pressure as our population grows.
Take a BALANCED AND UNBIASED view and you all of a sudden have some incentive to actually try and do the right thing.
Take a BIASED view that all fish die and you destroy that incentive to do the right thing and by default are subliminally encouraging people to rip up the fish as fast as they can and grab them by the eye sockets to rip the hook out then chuck the fish 20m away so the mutton birds can have something to peck at while you drop your nest bait down trying to upsize your necked 50cm dhuie that's sitting in the esky. All the while thinking "they all die anyway so whats the problem". That my friend is the danger of taking a BIASED AND UNBALANCED view.
Hopefully you will read this response in the way in which it is intended ie a bit of perspective, and not an attack on you personally. You hold your views as each of us do, based on our own individual experiences and many will share those views based on their experiences.. hopefully one day someone will help you see the problem in a different light. All I ask is that you be open minded about the issue and see that the taggers aren't the enemy they are genuinely trying to do the right thing.
Cheers
Andy Mac (Fishwrecked Reeltime Editor & Forum Moderator)
Youngest member of the Fishwrecked Old Farts Club
grantarctic1
Posts: 2546
Date Joined: 03/03/11
Seriously
Seriously have you even read my post ? To you and anyone else that has made the assumption i skull drag fish to the surface and don't give a shit about fishing for the future. Go get F#cked !!!!
I am all for the studies to be done and support them fully. I, also like many others on here don't continue to fish for demersals once bag or boat limits are reached. Most of my gear is very light and demersals are brought up slowly to give them the best chance of release ( Not the deck whinch you claim i use )
My comments ( once again i have to explain to you ) were about the video having no links, information or any other tags to support what it was stating. The only thing linking it was the page owner ( Northern Teritory Government . ) And without links to validate the video, or that it is actualy a government site i choose to be sceptical about studies done with fish in cages .( With no links, with no information .)
I have not , nor ever have diputed that fish get damaged by catch and release , I do not care about fillets in my freezer, I am all for studies to be done properly and the evidence provided to the public .
So i ask you to stop ranting on about things I HAVE NOT SAID . All the other member on this thread have debated without getting nasty or personal but you have attacked me with ranting , unfounded dribble ...
Notorious
Posts: 914
Date Joined: 23/02/12
THIS video is the exact
THIS video is the exact reason I cringe when fishermen on this site say something to the effect of "Yeah we caught our bag limit of Dhufish, but we caught another 12 Dhu for fun and released every one, catch and release tho!". You're doing more harm than good.
I have questioned and argued the survival rate of fish from barotrauma for a long timebeing poor, this video shows exactly why.
If you have your bag limit, change species for the the day. If love to catch and release demersal fish from over 10m for 'fun', stop being a hero!
end of rant!
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sea-kem
Posts: 15144
Date Joined: 30/11/09
There is no proof in this
There is no proof in this video Notorious that the fish shown is suffering Barotrauma. The god damn thing could be sick for all we know and in it's death throws. If fisheries come s up with some solid proof that dhuies suffer this then something needs to be done. Until then I'm a sceptic.
Love the West!
WADRay
Posts: 301
Date Joined: 20/12/09
the shit hanging out its
the shit hanging out its mouth and arse and the eyes bulging and grey isnt enough proof for you?
sea-kem
Posts: 15144
Date Joined: 30/11/09
What's your problem Wadray?
What's your problem Wadray? Someone put some shit on you today and you need to vent? Maybe you should think out a more measured reply before putting shit on people. Stick it up your arse pal.
Love the West!
carnarvonite
Posts: 8693
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Release weights
All release weights do IMO is to take the fish out of sight so you don't feel guilty when you drop it over the side and see it float off belly up
WADRay
Posts: 301
Date Joined: 20/12/09
+1
+1
Paully
Posts: 3246
Date Joined: 15/08/09
dont agree
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
+1
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
Jacko
Posts: 72
Date Joined: 15/10/08
Very interesting
Very interesting
If you can read this thank a teacher. If you can read it in English thank a Soldier.
Lamby
Posts: 3145
Date Joined: 04/08/09
It's a youtube video, were
It's a youtube video, were are the credentials? statements? peer reviews? clear variables?
A small part of my work is data collection & interpretation for work activity, if it doesn't go someones way the amount of times you are asked to manipulate the stats in their favour or throw in red herring's to detract from the actual outcome is pretty bad.
Wasn't there a study done that was actually discredited for placing dhuies in cages to measure the effects of barotrauma, the survival rate was shockingly low but it was discovered the cage was one of the major contributors. We have tagged fish that IMO were suffering severe barotrauma had doubts they would last long only to recapture them. (different release method than the weight & I agree John sometimes it's the out of sight issue with them but it's a better chance of survival than belly up)
I think we should all have a healthy dose of scepticism when it comes to any study, let alone a video on you tube that clearly has 'regression towards the mean'.
I would love to see some real money put towards an unbias study for this with a large pool, repeated testing & different environments
sea-kem
Posts: 15144
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Like!
Like!
Love the West!
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
Have tagged a lot of fish over the years
Some with fairly bad barotrauma and have seen many recaptured. I have a dhu thats undersize in 40 plus meters that came up with a novice at the same time I was tied up with a good fish on the other side of the boat.It came up to fast and had bad eyes,raised scales ect. It was sent back down while still on the rig about 10 meters for a couple of minutes while I got everything sorted out. Then bought up slowly and tagged,it was recaptured a few months later all fine and released again. If handled correctly and with respect they have a very good chance. As far as release weights go I put it this way.If you are a diver and you come up to quick,end up in a bad way are you going to sit on the couch with a beer and a panadol or go straight to the chamber? I think I know the answer. As far as the validity of cage fish research the only way it will work is if you have a test subject that has been captured at the release depth and placed in a cage as a control subject. I am as sure as that fish will be destressed and attract sharks and may even go belly up as well. Crap way to research anything.IMO. As a bit of a disclaimer before some of you start ranting,I only tag undersize fish or anything caught while targeting other species.I handle the fish with extreme care and as little as I can. I have seen many fish that I have tagged as being in a poor shape recaptured and some times several times. IMO stupidity kills more fish than anything else. Rip a fish up flat out ,then grab it by the jaw ,pull it in and drop it on a hot deck in straight sunlight.Grab a fair of pliers and pull half its face off trying to get a 50c hook back its always going to be screwed.
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
Andy Mac
Posts: 4778
Date Joined: 03/02/06
Its all in the retrieve
I too have been acutely interested in the effects of barotrauma for many years. Footage like this without the accompanying scientific paper that tells you more than just the depth and a few fish looking disoriented is counterproductive in my view. Sure it may be good propoganda to warn fisho's of these effects but it does very little to explain the cause of barotrauma and how to minmise it.
Make no mistake... batotrauma is very real and will kill fish if you don't take the appropriate care to minimise the effects.
1. Slow retrieve (no skull dragging)
2. decompression stop 10m, 5m, 2m (look for bubbles being released from fishes anus.
3. Minimise time on deck (get everything ready for release while the fish is still in the water.)
4. Release with a release weight or if the fish has been decompressed and shows minimal signs of barotrauma a simple release will suffice.
5. Simple release doesn't mean chucking the fish back over the side, it means holding the fish face down by the tail and letting the fish get re-orientated ofr a minute. Plenty swim back down strongly under their own steam if handled correctly.
If the fish in video were skull dragged and left languishing on the deck for 10mins while they shoved them into a metal cage, perhaps there were contributing factors to the appearance of some of those fish.
The fact that they used the shark footage clearly points to this being a propoganda video. Sure it makes a valid point about damaged fish being a prime target for predators but its a bit skewed in terma of scientific evidence as any fish trapped in a cage is going to show nervousness and attract predators wether they have barotrauma or not.
Bottom line guys is retrieve slow, deco stop, minimal time out of water and back down with a release weight if possible. I have personally recaptured 4 dhufish that I have tagged myself in 40m+ depth so they do survive with the right care.
My only hope is that this video encourages members to use these techniques and minimize the effects of barotrauma so we have a fishery to look forward to for many generations to come.
Cheers
Andy Mac (Fishwrecked Reeltime Editor & Forum Moderator)
Youngest member of the Fishwrecked Old Farts Club
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
We had a pink snapper tag recapture and then recaptured.
It was released the first time a few months back.Recaptured on the 5th and then again yesterday. I have a few tags in now so will put all the data on the site in the next couple of days.
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
pale ale
Posts: 1755
Date Joined: 02/01/10
Any idea how undersized red
Any idea how undersized red emperor handle barotrauma? We have no option to allow decompression up here cos the sharks will take your fish. Some days I may release 5 or 6 undersize reds whilst trying to catch a couple big ones. Reds are from the same family, so are they likely to suffer the same symptoms? They usually seem to swim back down quite quickly.
dodgy
Posts: 4588
Date Joined: 01/02/10
Reds don't seem to be
Reds don't seem to be affected by barotrauma at all.
Does anyone know where the love of god goes, when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
pale ale
Posts: 1755
Date Joined: 02/01/10
That is the way it appears.
That is the way it appears. We skull drag the fish to avoid sharks, yet they appear to be quite healthy on the relase. Cod and chinaman are terrible. They get barotrauma in 20 metres.
Paully
Posts: 3246
Date Joined: 15/08/09
What are the opinions on venting the fish
with an tool of some kind I do no old timers that will do that as well as use release weights etc.
kmo
Posts: 127
Date Joined: 17/01/12
Education
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWOZ2qkPIN0
Looks like they are just doing a general education campaign to get people to consider barotrauma when fishing. I don't think this is a bad thing, and if people get encouraged to learn how to handle fish better so that they can continue catch and release with a higher survival rate then all the better.
I imagine that they would get sharked pretty quickly in the NT with a slow retrieve and a deco stop though.
Their "control" in the video was the fish caught from 10m. They did look healthier than the fish from deeper water, but as has been said a lot of times, the short vid is only a snapshot of the work that was done.
carnarvonite
Posts: 8693
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Education
Bring the fish up slowly is a big help but when you see on TV fishing shows where the angler sprouts off about giving the fish heaps to get it up quickly isn't really the cause much good.
The use of lighter lines, though I dislike them, tuna circle hooks and finding a way to stop anglers "upsizing" their catch will go a long way towards saving the lives of many good fish that otherwise turn in to food for the bottom dwellers
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
A lot of fish on the TV fishing shows are handled badly
as well. Trevally with bent tails,picked up by the lower jaw ect. Sambos and Amberjacks with bent necks after being picked up by the tail and held upright using the jig ect. Had one deckie that picked up a undersize Dhu by the eye spocket ,A MAJOR pet hate of mine,ripped the hook out a chucked it over the side about 3m from the edge of the boat. It swam away (not sure how it went long term) That was the second drift of the morning. The boat was on the trailer at 8am and a guy I have known for years now no longer fishes with me.
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
Doooma
Posts: 791
Date Joined: 05/12/09
So instead of intsructing him
So instead of intsructing him on the correct way to handle the fish, you have now let him go on somewhere else.... to continue doing the wrong thing???
I dont mean to have a dig.... or sound like it... but that would have been a perfect opportunity to give him some obviously badly needed knowledge!!
Obviously Im commenting and I dont know what happened behind the scenes... You may very well have done that, and he may have acted like a complete tosser.... If you did.. I tip my hat!
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
He was told it is not how it happens on our boat
He went on a rant about how he does things and ended up on the ramp.The other guy and I went on to catch a few good fish a bit closer to home.As far as I know he doesnt fish much anymore.
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
sstevee
Posts: 472
Date Joined: 15/11/11
I'm curious as to how they
I'm curious as to how they managed to release more than one fish at a time???
As all who tag and release have stated the fish needs to go back down asap... How would you get more than one fish in the cage unless you were putting them in a live well while you pulled up a couple more?
That part has me confused?!
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
Fish Trap
Winch up drop back.
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
sstevee
Posts: 472
Date Joined: 15/11/11
Ahhhh, ok. Didn't even think
Ahhhh, ok. Didn't even think of that... It does however state at the start of the video that the fish were caught using conventional methods and circle hooks?
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
I havent even bothered to watch it
They are all the same. They dont show how to handle the fish correctly and any cage research is doomed from the start.
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
sstevee
Posts: 472
Date Joined: 15/11/11
Spot on mate!... I think a
Spot on mate!... I think a video showing the correct way to handle and release a fish would go a lot further than this nonsense
Matt T
Posts: 875
Date Joined: 19/11/07
Recapture
I'm sure Paul G has tagged and recaptured lots of Dhu's that have gone back down fine.
That guy really knows what he's doing though.
Notorious
Posts: 914
Date Joined: 23/02/12
The minor points of the
The minor points and variables of the 'research' done in the video can be argued for days till the cows come home. The fact of the matter is, we all need to be mindful of what goes on in the water. Just because the fish appears to swim off healthy doesnt mean it has survived. Barotrauma kills fish, you cant argue that.
I praise you blokes that take great pride in catch care and doing the right thing. I have been on a boat with some lino's that burst the swim bladder of fish with the knife tip and let the fish swim away.
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dodgy
Posts: 4588
Date Joined: 01/02/10
I know a couple of the blokes
I know a couple of the blokes involved in the science behind these videos and I can assure you that realistic practices are used in obtaining their data.
They are not out to ban fishing but more to raise awareness of what effect catching multiple fish has on fish stocks. It was a major factor in keeping bag limit on the Golden Snapper at 5 per person.
Black Jews are the same and I believe that even the river mullaway are hit hard.
I seem to remember a effort 10 years of so ago to catch some river broodstock for a breeding program but every black wall reach mulla died.
I believe they eventually targeted a few fish in shallow water for their stock.
Does anyone know where the love of god goes, when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
Toby Roe
Posts: 118
Date Joined: 01/02/10
Food for thought. I always
Food for thought.
I always thought that goldies were pretty hardy. I have put a lot of fish back in ~ 15m when they tend to school up. I will think twice when I am up there next time.
Thanks for the post
Daisy
Posts: 789
Date Joined: 24/01/08
Some fish are sooks, even
Some fish are sooks, even black jews caught in creeks take a fair bit of reviving at times, big threadies too, yet Reds caught in 60 metres seem to be healthy as, catch a Scarlet out of the same water? No chance. As for release weights you can't help but feel the damage has already been done which makes the max limit on cod questionable at certain depths I reckon.
The view expressed in this post is that of a self opinionated bullshitter and does not reflect that of this website, it's owners, mediators, other members or anyone else for that matter :-P
Simmo
Posts: 106
Date Joined: 26/05/06
Interesting thread
Love the signature, dodgy.
sea-kem
Posts: 15144
Date Joined: 30/11/09
My Grandad used to have a
My Grandad used to have a saying " Believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see" Lamby has pretty well spelled out my thoughts on this. I'm a Nazi on my boat when it comes to fish conservation,release etc. We do our best to release fish soundly but at the end of the day we (all the boats that go out for a fish) are out there to get a feed and there will be casualties it's just part of the game. All we can do is try to minimise what we do in regards damage to unwanted or undersize fish.
Love the West!