Bret Carter
So, by reading the facebook updates, it seems Fisheries are finally showing how spiteful they really are, and after nearly 3 years, are finally going after a conviction against Bret Carter.
Even though the Fisheries Minister has acknowledged an issue with the legislation (he has demanded Fisheries and RecFishWest review the legislation to make it more equal, before October 15th), Fisheries are opting to push for a conviction as soon as possible. By the sounds of things, he now has 2 options:
1). Cop a reduced (but still very hefty) fine, or
2). fight the charge again in the magistrates court.
He is apparently starting up a go-fund-me page to fight the charge (again...), and when it pops up, I will post it up here as soon as I see it.
I'm hoping there is a few people on here that will dig as deep as they can to help not just him, but the cause, and the injustice. Even if its only a few $$$'s will help, especially if everyone jumps on board.
Marineboy
Posts: 845
Date Joined: 14/03/14
Smarter not harder
My spots are so secret even the fish don't know about them !
dawsy
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 16/12/14
Business is not human.
Business is not human. Business just pushes the boundaries of the rules it is granted.
As a recreational angler, you are an individual, although not sure on todays lobster licences.
timboon
Posts: 2961
Date Joined: 14/11/10
Come on Rob..... Without
Come on Rob.....
Without meeting you face to face i know you've been around long enough to know how the Pros would react to any "loosening" of the laws that affect the ammos....
I'll give you an example abelit somewhat off topic, My Uncle and Cousins have about 12T of King Crab quota they fish in both the Northern and Southern zones in SA.
Recently on here a fella was asking about deep sea crabbing and as it has been over 15 years since i was on the deck of the crab boat i couldn't remember the deepest we got the kings in SA.
I sent a text to my two cousins asking the question and immediately the response was gaurded and then they went on to say that apparently there is a certain fishing club back in SA that had been boasting about members catching 600kgs of Kings ( i'm not sure over what time period )....
This was enough for my concerned Uncle to write a letter to the minister and for them all to get their backs up because the ammos have now started to chase the kings out deep and by all accounts are getting them in good numbers....
My Uncle is earning bloody good money, prob grossing nearly a million bucks in his 7 month season and good on him for doing so, If the rec club kept it hush what they were up to and were also abiding by the rules n regs then everyone is a winner but as soon as he caught wind of it it was like they were stealing out of his very pockets...
Its everyones resource, they pay a lisence fee, we pay a lisence fee, why should we be locked out here yet the pros can fish?
Its crazy to divide people that should all want the same outcome and that is a plentiful fishery, we should all have equal access....
Whats next? Let the pros take a carapace thats 20mm smaller because it gives the Emperor of Shangfuckinghai a stiffy for two days when he has a nice fresh kacker and mayo sanga?
The ban has now started for amatuers chasing the demersals, in the couple of weeks prior to the ban being lifted the same net boat will run his net in the 20-40's between the capes, i see it every year.....
Notorious thinks the Fisheries are doing the righty, hmmmm with devisive regs like that I dont think so......
Rob H
Posts: 5808
Date Joined: 18/01/12
You dont need to meet me
You dont need to meet me face to face.
Commercial cray fishermen as a body, to the best of my knowledge have no interest in whether amateurs fish 12 months or 7 1/2 months.
The other guys here who sit on the same committee as me may know otherwise, but I have not heard any objection or lobbying raised by WAFIC or the other associations.
Maybe ask Recfishwest if they think its a conspiracy by commercial crayfishermen but I think you'll find that of all sectors, lobster in WA is the most harmonious in management between rec and pro.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
dawsy
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 16/12/14
This is why, if anyone who
This is why, if anyone who was recreational crayfishing 30 years ago would know, inspectors for crayfish have always been hot. This is because of the 'commercial' value of the market. Lobster is a high value 'commercial' commodity.
Recreational lobster fishers have always been targeted. You have fisheries officers walk out the bushes in some little country town 30+ years ago to ensure you werent a millimetre under.
The officers have always followed 'letter of the law'. The issue is, the law is definitive.
We had an officer check us in Dongara, when the main street was 'gravel' to ensure our crays were all above aboard. Not worried about finfish.
Yet my grandfather used lobster for bait in the around the war. One the few recreationals with boats. All plywood boat built by himself in his backyard.
Trip down the track from Perth to Busso around the 40s. Not too many boat trailers in them days.
little johnny
Posts: 5362
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Yes they use
To buy tails for bait dirt cheap.
dawsy
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 16/12/14
I went to hit the like
I went to hit the like button
He used to just catch his own crays. There was only the local market and not many people used to eat the crays. No global market so no $65 per kg.
He was sacked from the railways because he used to catch a hessian bag of herring before work with a handline which he made more $ than a days work in the railways. No one was sacked from railways, but he was lol For being late
Rob H
Posts: 5808
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Not quite true mate.Well
Not quite true mate.
Well before the era you mention they were canning lobster for export and for servicemen during the war.
There were a few canneries including at the Abrolhos
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
sea-kem
Posts: 15031
Date Joined: 30/11/09
I'll stand corrected but was
I'll stand corrected but was speaking to a guy who's related to a pro and he reckons they need to make $65 kg before break even. Doesn't surprise me with overheads associated in that game.
Love the West!
Rob H
Posts: 5808
Date Joined: 18/01/12
that is mainly related to
that is mainly related to the lease price of quota, and there certainly is some greedy quota owners out there.
It has always been that leasing a licence/quota is just buying a job and your stuck with a depreciating assett (boat/pots) while the owner suns himself in the Bahamas demanding payment on time no matter the cray price.
However (referring to others comments above) professional fishermen associations have never had any objection to a 12 month rec season, there is no reason they would as the allocation is set at 95/5% anyway.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
hezzy
Posts: 1521
Date Joined: 27/11/09
seakem the main reason they
seakem
the main reason they need that price is purely because their own internal industry cohorts re leasing of pots etc has pushed the price up to capitalise on the high sale price of crays that they have been getting
it is the bigger players in the pot /boat lease industry that have driven this
for guys who own a licence and their own pots and have been in the game for say 15-20 years plus they should be on cream
they sell 95%+ of their catch overseas to the one market ..that recently has been getting crays from other markets cheaper , that has dropped the demand and the price follows
if you make your industry strategy all around one market at high prices on that sole market , its not surprising it can hurt some of the players at some stage
while i feel for them to some degree , its like any business , you make choices on the info you had at the time and kept adjusting as your saw the market change ....or not .. for peeps who did not or overcommitted they are now hurting
OFW 11
evil flourishes when good men do nothing
sea-kem
Posts: 15031
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Cool that makes sense, I see
Cool that makes sense, I see it all the time in my business that's why I have a good diversification of clients. When one goes quite the other picks up and I don't need to adjust pricing. Thanks for the response Rob/Hezzy
Love the West!
dawsy
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 16/12/14
That happens a lot in
That happens a lot in industry. Price of commodity goes up which brings other players into the industry. Ask the iron ore industry.
The higher the price, the more players enter the game.
Its all part of the business 'market driven price' game. Not much different from petrol. With it, comes risk.
The higher the prices, the more oil rigs enter the water.
timboon
Posts: 2961
Date Joined: 14/11/10
Lets not be naive here
Lets not be naive here Rob...
The allocation is set at 95% - 5% but at present the amatuers dont reach the 5%....
Not all but certainly most Pro's in my experience seem to think they have some sort of higher ownership of the ocean and what comes out of it...
If the amatuers were allowed in all year and that raised there take then it makes it just that little bit harder for the pro to reach his quota, that might only be a few extra days but its all about the margin/price per/kg av..
Because of this they certainly wouldn't welcome an extended ammo season.
I wish the pro boys luck and hope they can continue to make a very good living but it gets messy IMO when there are rules for one and not the other....
I dont blame them for the current system just like i can't blame old mate down here between the capes that comes through netting the 20-40's prior to the opening of the Demersal ban, its actually quite clever isn't...
The ammos take the boat out a few times for fuck all then they start thinking is it worth all that hassle just for a fish or two ( if ya lucky ).....
It just strikes me as very strange the way the Western Australian Fisheries claim to have the best interest of the state fishery in mind when they make these devisive regulations....
dawsy
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 16/12/14
The good thing is, the
The good thing is, the commercial sector can shift their effort to the best date to fetch the highest market price. So if the money is not there, dont go fishing. Shift to when someone is paying top dollar.
scotto
Posts: 2472
Date Joined: 21/04/08
me
not that its actually got anything to do with the price of eggs, buuuutttt.....
I have a MASSIVE problem with the fact that more than 95% of the professionally caught crays in WA get exported out of the country, and John. Q. Public has to fork out $60+ for a single cray at kailis during Christmas.
that in itself is absolute fucking bullshit, and is a direct result of Fisheries being the greedy cunce they are.
dawsy
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 16/12/14
Local market only licence lease?
Price of eggs again. Isnt Kailis predominantly owned by Chinese now? They split the company up which made it complex. Still some irony in the Chinese selling to Aussies.
Maybe fisheries should 'lease' out a newly written licence for 'perth' people only to the highest bidder? Local market only? All new licence rules with no ownership to sell down next generation.
So some of the the resource goes to locals only? 'Some' of the local market is fed by a new licence of local only?
A fisheries 'lease only' agreement, with returns to the taxpayer, just like say the licence owners that lease to other lobster fishermen?
I have to say though, people are paying $65 a kilo to Kailis for the lobster. The market is only driven by what people are paying.
Personally I like prawns.
hezzy
Posts: 1521
Date Joined: 27/11/09
scotto i totally agree with
scotto i totally agree with you and have held this view for years that it is an absolute disgrace that the resource [western rock lobster ] is a wild grown product belongs to all west aussies and as such most cant get access to it at reasonable prices
when you add in the main reason most commercial licence holders/WAFIC and the gov use to justify their mandate to access that resource year in year out is that
THEY NEED TO HAVE ACCESS TO SUPPLY THE PUBLIC WHO DONT/CANT FISH THEMSELVES !!!
if you use that as your reason for existence , it makes a damm mockery of it to sell most of it overseas and ignore the local market you supposedly exist for to supply ...yeh ??
im not anti pro , many are mates and have been for years, i blame the gov for letting it develop along this line , the peel harvey crab fishery is another like this that catch is now beign sent out of the state at higher and higher % each season , as the catch increases if it was a 50\50 split between both sectors , rec and comms it might be more palatable
hezzy
OFW 11
evil flourishes when good men do nothing
sea-kem
Posts: 15031
Date Joined: 30/11/09
#supplyanddemand
#supplyanddemand #freemarkettrade Or we could be commies
Love the West!
timboon
Posts: 2961
Date Joined: 14/11/10
For some reason when i
For some reason when i re-fresh not all of the replies seem to re-fresh.....
Westcoast you aren't the sharpest knife in the draw are you, in fact perhaps you are as blunt as a wooden spoon....
Ask yourself why they used to have a set season and why is it that things have now changed, I'll save you the hard work - Its all about the $$$
How about you head on down to the Wharf and watch the boys come in on the 1-2 million dollar 12-1500 hp boats and you ask yourself jeez are they blokes doing it tough or what!!
Oh and you just remember sonny, all they do is Harvest Harvest Harvest....
Now to you Notorious I also missed your reply - Thanks to Hezzy for setting you stright regarding the contributions Professionals make to the state....
I'm not even going to waste my time pissing into the wind to try and explain to those that can't see past their own noses regarding the benefits of Professionals HARVESTING OUR RESOURCE as opposed to the flow on affect when amatuers chase a feed for their family.....
There are very few species that are professionally caught in this state that i think actually benefits the mum n dads out there who purchase it because the reality is the export market has forced prices sky high...
Its time we look well to the future and make hard decisions regarding how this state ( and most others ) can benefit more by actually fucking off Professional HARVESTERS that send their catch interstate or international and leave OUR RESOURCES in the water for the people that own them and want a healthy past time and them the ability to recreationally fish and eat them. A lot of what i've written here is in a hurry but hopefully you get the jist of what i'm getting at....
Boon
West Coast
Posts: 332
Date Joined: 10/12/07
I still don't get your point.
Why bash the pro sector. Seems to me you have a massive chip on your shoulder. The industry has been well managed and is great shape. The pro's are working 1/2 as much and leaving twice as many crays in the water, something we are all benefiting from. Jesus it is not that hard to catch a cray these days. Of course it is about money, but it is also about managing the industry and effort, and they have done a pretty good job. Plenty of crays out there for everyone.
Yep the cray price is rediculously high but the pro's are not going anywhere. You are already winging that they are leaving twice as many crays in the water as they used to. Take them away completely and Kailis will not have any crays at any price to sell to the public...but those with boats will still be able to catch them.......just as we do now.
Do you want recs to be able to fish all year? OK fine. Perhaps that will come in. I can't imagine the rec catch changing all that much. Pro's will still be driving their big boats and the cray price will still be high.
It is a valuable fishery with contibutions from rec and pro's. I reckon its in pretty good shape.
hezzy
Posts: 1521
Date Joined: 27/11/09
west coast ..you can thank 2
west coast ..you can thank 2 men for the good cray seasons & fishing we recs have now ...the first guy to actually take action was john ford as minister for fisheries he took the wet line licence capability of most of the cray fleet , that stopped dead in its tracks much of their overfishing their TAC it took 12 years of reviews before the dept of fisheries where forced to act on it and he brought in the demersal ban we now have
second man was norman moore ...he forced the cray industry onto a quota system ... and away from effort controls ,, in effect he capped their catch ...
that was needed and if it was left to the commercial guys they would never have done it by themselves
from 2000-2004 we had anywhere beteen 45-60 cray boats flood the capes and hammer the hell out of the crays to make a $ that capes fishery historically had only ever supported about 12-15 boats from Mandurah south to windy harbour ...but as it produced a re growth on the biomass they joint was plundered ..so badly that it took to 2010 for it to recover ...many of us contacted fisheries about this and they did zip over many years
self regulation by the group who stands to make money from an industry rarely works out well for the resource they harvest ...all that happens is they make bigger and bigger profits and control that industry to the exclusion of all others .banks and oil companies spring to mind as well as others
the present state of the biomass is good because of those moves by those men in the main ... they took very unpopular decisions and stuck with them
over time the cray industry will continue imo to be put into the hands of fewer people as big industry players buy and control it all , same as the prawns etc ...smaller independent guys will be pushed out or bought out ....
hezzy
OFW 11
evil flourishes when good men do nothing
Rob H
Posts: 5808
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Timboon, I have to agree
Timboon, I have to agree with Westcoast here.
Im not sure what circles of pro fisherman you hang with to get that impression, or maybe its a down south thing.
But the commercial fisherman have little interest in what or when recs atch past the 95/5% allocation.
And they have a good reason to NOT oppose a 12 mnth rec season-whale entanglement
They would prefer we all share the heat from greenies during th winter on that issue.
Do you want to catch MORE than you already are?
What do you wat to do with them?
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
dawsy
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 16/12/14
It sounds like it to me, the
It sounds like it to me, the lesees have paid way too much to the leasers, and now the Chinese have switched Hong Kong on and off, other players have come into the market, the lesees need to renegotiate with the leasers.
Lobster fishermen payin too much to other Lobster fishermen for their pot licences
hezzy
Posts: 1521
Date Joined: 27/11/09
[Lobster fishermen payin too
[Lobster fishermen payin too much to other Lobster fishermen for their pot licences]
that about sums it up dawsey
hezzy
OFW 11
evil flourishes when good men do nothing
dawsy
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 16/12/14
I guess once fisheries have
I guess once fisheries have printed off licences to the effect of 95% of the extraction rate for the commercial sector, it gets a bit hard to come back and expect more?
Thats what you probably call, at full exploitation? Just cant take anymore off recreationals that own the resource in the first place?
2 x pots = $500 *If the pots arent stolen
boat fuel = $xxx
car fuel = $xxx
bait = $xxx
lobster licence = $xxx
tralier licence = $xxx
boat icence = $xxx
ramp fees = $xxx
anti-imflammatories = $xxx
Crikies, you wouldnt want the price per kg to drop too much, for recreational anglers who cant claim tax deductions on boats, expenses etc. Its a costly business, $1000 plus a season?
$1000 buys you how many crays? I like getting up in the morning, but. Pulling pots up aint that much fun, paying for the pleasure. Better things to do in a warm bed, and go down the shop, buy some instead payin for a freezer runnin out the back.
Considering its your public resource?
Walfootrot
Posts: 1385
Date Joined: 23/07/12
Think we have gone a bit of
Think we have gone a bit of track here!!!!!!!!!
More drum lines, kill the bloody sharks!
dawsy
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 16/12/14
And pay for the pleasure of
And pay for the pleasure of puttin a few hundred hours on your outboard
dawsy
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 16/12/14
And pay for the pleasure of
Probably covered all bases on lobster now
Walfootrot Are you a moderator?When you look at the economics, anglers shouldnt be payin above the commercial price to go pull pots including wear and tear on engine to access their own resource.
Lobster licence should come under one boat licence as an option on the application. The economic revenue and non tax deductable revenue should pay for the management. Costs shouldnt exceed the commercial value to access your own resource. May need to up the recreational limit by 10%.
Once my costs exceeds the commercial value, I can go down the shop and buy a 200 crays at volume discount. The economic benefit is diminished. Go to Europe for a holday or somethin.
Not sure which part Kalis now owned by Chinese, but the commercial economic aspect is then already economicly diminished. The money going overseas.
You cant deny that recreational 5% of the lobster TAC is not worth a bloody lot of money, probably net revenue more than the commercial 95%. If recreational collapses its a decent chunk of the macro Western Australian economy and local jobs.
timboon
Posts: 2961
Date Joined: 14/11/10
Dont even bother trying to
Dont even bother trying to do the math Dawsy to head north from Perth to catch a Red or a Macky....
Thats if you get them past the sharks....
dawsy
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 16/12/14
I see catching a macky as a
I see catching a macky or sailfish as a joyful experience on light line. The whole experience is like playing a game of golf.
If you bring back your trip limit in whole fish, you are going to smell like a fish by the time it goes off in the freezer. Once it becomes a tradeable commodity outside recreational consumption, its a commercial operation. Its a big freezer.
Pulling pots out of 30 metres not so joyful. There is the social aspect, but crayfishing isnt really that joyful. Different aspects. I dont consider pulling pots the same experience. The economic value to the fisherman of crays has to reflect that.
I dont see many lobster recs catch and releasing lobster as a past time. Pullin pots up to release lobster aint much fun.
timboon
Posts: 2961
Date Joined: 14/11/10
You could do away with 8mm
You could do away with 8mm nylon rope and re-rig your jarrah slatted pots with 200lb mono?
You could call that sport Dawsy?
You deckhand might call you something that ends with unt.....
I do love my Golf but 3 putting is kinda similar to pulling the hooks before you see the colour.....
You grow tired of that real quickly....
dawsy
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 16/12/14
lol Yes I could, but I buy a
lol Yes I could, but I buy a couple of crays and supplement with king prawns.
But human nature will be, when the price falls, it will be cheaper to just go buy crays. Human nature will be a rapid shift towards just buying them and diminished local economy.
As hard as we try, saving a 100 hours on the outboard, we cant make tying 200lb mono on pots fun. No more ramp cues.
Anglers would persist with macks, but cray pots you wuld be nuts if you can save the work of pulling pots if the price falls. You should never be paying more than the commercial price to access your own resource. That is rediculious.
At $65 a kilo, Im surprised the Chinese havent gone into wild strip breeding, with ponds back in China away from Australias green tape?
I see Western Australians buy the crays from overseas at supermarkets. Odd isnt it.
It will be interesting to see the numbers of people putting pots in the water this year.
I can see the fun in diving for crays. Incrediblely lower capital costs though.
Mayb thats why the recreational TAC was much less than 4% at one stage. Anglers were paying too much to go catch a cray due to the low numbers on the old commercial quota?
The return on investment was ****** appalling under the old commercial system
little johnny
Posts: 5362
Date Joined: 04/12/11
It’s gone on way to
Long getting very confusing. One minute in guide , all off a sudden changed back how it’s always been. Buggered if I will take any females with hairs. No need at all. Same as I never take female crabs.( breeders)
dawsy
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 16/12/14
Fisheries WA has confirmed an
Fisheries WA has confirmed an extra 12,500 western rock lobsters will be allocated to local seafood markets over the Christmas period.
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/chaos-at-perth-boat-ramp-as-mercury-soars-towards-36c-20171210-h01zus.html